How would you feel if HGL had a monthly fee?

[Nash]

So, as we have seen in interviews, Hellgate: London "might" require some monthly fee. If that is the case, who is going to buy it? What's the target audience?

When D2 got really old and prople got bored, it left a void. That void was the free to play online coop RPG. The monthly fee paying people went to WoW, but the others were stuck in that void. GW realized this after half its development or so, and tried to fill that void, but that just made the game crap. DS2 tried too, but the classic was better than the new.

So, the non-fee payers, who were still stuck in that void, looked frantically for something to play. Some would play D2, some it's self-proclaimed sequals GW or DS2, and some gave up and played FPS or something instead, while waiting for something new.

Personally, I thought the whole point of HGL was to target this void, to pull in the non-P2P RPG crowd, those who want a new D2, an online coop RPG without monthly fees. If HGL has a monthly fee, it may as well lay down before WoW and die.

Maybe Flagship is having trouble figuring out how to fund their game, but it seems like alienating their player base and trying to steal WoW's players is a poor way to go about it.

[Sophitia]

I will play the game only in single player so this is not my problem...

But if the online part of the game will be pay per play, the game should be better and more enjoyable of World of Warcraft, or people will continue to play (and pay for) Wow...

[chakl]

On monthly fees, If the game gives you a choice to play single players, and possibly Open mp (similar to that of open b.net) what would be the point to include a P2P MP business model. Otherwise i would think everyone and thier mother would be playing open MP over a closed secure MP that would require you to pay for. Just my 2 cents.

[major5013]

I'm not one that likes monthly fees. BUT, for games like this I would much rather play MP then settle for SP, So if i got the game i would pay the fees for MP. I would be kind of dissappointed if they did add monthly fees, but I think I would still get the game. It depends on my financial situation too...

[Dynotaku]

I can't imagine that this game will have a monthly fee. I mean, there aren't any MMOs that make you pay a monthly fee and also offer an offline single player game. FSS has repeatedly said that the game will include a fully realized single player campaign, so then what? You buy the game, then you have to pay to play it online? Not pay to play it, just to play it online. I don't see that happening. Besides that would fracture the community. You'd have online and offline players, and the people who would be willing to give online a shot but don't have anyone to play with specifically (like me) would never bother venturing online. For what? To play the same game, only now you have to pay for it and worry about others horking your loot?

Besides, MMOs suck (IMO) because of monthly fees. The gamplay is designed to keep you playing for long periods of time without really ever accomplishing anything. They don't have stories. You can never beat the game. I had never heard the term 'grind' applied to video games, until a little after EQ came out and a lexicon of MMO-speak started to evolve. If FSS decides to move to a fee based system, they might be inclined to add a lot of 'suck' to the game to draw out the gamplay experience, like... adding '00' to the end of all the 'XP needed for next level' checkpoints, or adding in dumb crafting skills along with the need to farm resources incessantly. All this instead of really giving the game amazing replayabiity through the randomness and amazingly well concieved character skill trees... or skill maps, or whatever they're calling them. That's what I'm looking for. An action game in a 3D world with infinite replayability and explorability, not another boring grinder.

I hate fee based games because of crap like that, not because I can't swing $15/mo.

But HG:L looks like a really really good game, even if it was tarnished with annoying grinding and other non-fun game elements, I'd probably still buy it, and play it for a while, but I can tell you for sure that it wouldn't have the same longevity as D2 has.

Now, if FSS does decide to go fee based, but stays absolutely true to the original concept (as I understand it), that is an action game with out heinous (or any) downtime and grinding and farming and crafting, I'd gladly pay a monthly fee, I mean, I want to support FSS, the game looks cooler than almost anything I've ever seen, but it's hard for me to believe that the game won't somehow be compromised by that decision. That there won't be a CFO or a publisher sitting in a board room somewhere saying "How can we maximize these numbers?" "I want this wedge of the pie chart to be 4% bigger, and gameplay be damned."

[Pernicious]

But if the online part of the game will be pay per play, the game should be better and more enjoyable of World of Warcraft, or people will continue to play (and pay for) Wow...
There is going to be no chance that a great number of people are going to drop WoW to play this. No way in hell.

That being said, it would very strategic marketing to have this free. I'm sure it will attract a great deal more players if there is no monthly fee.

[wildcardd]

If Guild Wars can provide a fun playable game for no monthly fees, I believe that HG:L should be able to also. Remember the GW group were some old BNet employees.

[13hades13]

There is going to be no chance that a great number of people are going to drop WoW to play this. No way in hell.

That being said, it would very strategic marketing to have this free. I'm sure it will attract a great deal more players if there is no monthly fee.

IMO, if anything can steal a great number of WoW players, it'll be this. It won't bring WoW to it's knees by any means--but hopefully HG:L will at least make a dent. I know I'm gonna be leaving WoW when HG:L comes out.

As to the monthly fee; no monthly fee = more players online = better multiplayer experience = better game overall. From what I've seen, FSS is trying to make a really good game, with money being the secondary objective. I'm sure that if there is an monthly fee, it will be reasonable and necessary.

[Sol Invictus]

I can see this game as being free to play, yet profitable for Flagship/Namco in the US, European and in the "International" (Australia, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Phillipines, Thailand, Japan, South America) release, but the game may be viable as a P2P game in countries like Korea, China and Taiwan where P2P games are the norm. In China, P2P is the only viable way for companies to make any money because of piracy. They can sell monthly subscription cards in China and Taiwan as an alternative to the 'free to play' version (which should also be available for those with computers), because a large majority of gamers don't even own computers and only have access to those games through internet centers and cybercafes. Having a variety of payment models to suit the market would be a fantastic idea.

Elsewhere, I think that it would be in their best interest to have a free multiplayer service, because competing with other subscription based games like WOW could prove detrimental and alienate a large portion of their fanbase, like those from Diablo 2.

[Pernicious]

If Guild Wars can provide a fun playable game for no monthly fees, I believe that HG:L should be able to also. Remember the GW group were some old BNet employees.
I'm sure many here will hate the fact that you're comparing Guild Wars to HG:L. :D Hopefully saying that won't elevate this into another Guild Wars bashing thread.

I still don't understand why so many people think that there will be a monthly fee. To my knowledge, there have been no singleplayer games that offer multiplayer that charge a fee. MMOs charge a fee because multiplayer is the only way to play. Also, it is because MMOs have to host their own servers. When a FPS or a game like Hellgate, there can be player hosted games.

[Yangstuh]

IMHO, there will be no monthly fees. This game isn't an MMO, but has mmo-like features... for now at least. Usually if a game is an p2p type game, its made quite obvious in the beginning of developement.

[Killmojo]

If i was a betting man. I would bet a lot of money that this will not cost a monthly fee. The reasons have been listed above in several posts and i dont really think i need to repeat them.

[AnimalCracker]

I was going to say that generally, games with monthly fees have a more mature following, and Im all for that. Over the top pre-teens killed D2 for me, and killed Live for me.


..........Then I played WoW, and thats obviously not the case. Honestly, I dont care. Of course Ill prefer it to be free, but Ill pay for a monthly fee. $10 would be fair if its something like D2.

[Sol Invictus]

To be honest, I'd pay a monthly fee for this game, but I don't think everyone would.

[AnimalCracker]

If they can get prepaid cards, then FSS can caputre the younger crowd, at least within time.

[Scapes]

To be honest, I'd pay a monthly fee for this game, but I don't think everyone would.
This echoes my current feelings.

However, I must agree that it'll be quite difficult to pull gamers from their WoW addictions and convince them to try a new flavor.
-- Scaper-X

[Nash]

I will never pay a monthly fee for a game.

I don't think HGL will require one in the end, but they haven't decided yet so you never know.

[Mariena]

I doubt that HG: will require a monthly fee. If it does, I would be wondering whether to pick it up nor not.

[Killmojo]

I dont think that I would buy HG:L if there was a monthly fee.

[Neutron Star]

I'm sure I wouldn't. For a monthly fee I expect everything a true MMORPG would offer and maybe a bit more.

[Dynotaku]

Also, it is because MMOs have to host their own servers. When a FPS or a game like Hellgate, there can be player hosted games.

Unfortunately, we actually don't know that yet. I am seriously hoping that there is the option to host your own games and play on a LAN, because that's generally how I play D2, plus I think this would be a pretty killer LAN party game, but FSS hasn't confirmed that yet. All they've really said is 'single player, and an online mode similar to Guild Wars'

[wildcardd]

I'm sure many here will hate the fact that you're comparing Guild Wars to HG:L. :D Hopefully saying that won't elevate this into another Guild Wars bashing thread.

I still don't understand why so many people think that there will be a monthly fee. To my knowledge, there have been no singleplayer games that offer multiplayer that charge a fee. MMOs charge a fee because multiplayer is the only way to play. Also, it is because MMOs have to host their own servers. When a FPS or a game like Hellgate, there can be player hosted games.


Sorry, didn't mean to draw the comparison between the two different genres. I was meaning to say that GW is able to provide a (reasonably) robust multiplayer experience without monthly fees. Fees are usually slapped on to cover bandwidth and customer support. GW was created to deliver a minimal amount of data (compared to something like WOW). The guys responsible were the original BNet developers. I would assume Bill and the gang will be able to deliver a similar system for multiplayer.

Has anyone mentioned the (possible) episodic nature of this product as well? I know that GW is supposed to be set up that way so every few months there is a new "episode". Would it be in their best interests to release expansions or episodes every few months to keep the revenue comming in and the fanbase satiated?

[Dac the Hork]

Note: I think the thread is kinda bad in that it depicts HGL being pay 2 play when I have heard nothing of the sort. Might be good to clarify this for noobs to the board.

I would most likely pay a monthly fee...

If a game is good enough, I would always pay a monthly fee to support it. 10-15 dollars really isn't that bad for a good game experience. In general for series I like, Mechwarrior, diablo, fallout, and some others I definately wouldnt mind helping support them with a monthly fee when I played them. Whether it's buying the CE edition or whatever..

I don't really crave the "mmo" experience of 1000s of people all on the same world.

15$ is the difference between eating top ramen and going out to eat once.

[Sol Invictus]

I've renamed the thread to "How would you feel if HGL had a monthly fee?" to avoid any confusion.

The problem I have with monthly fees is that they are a hassle. If I decide to stop playing the game for awhile, I'd have to unsubscribe from the game, and if I ever felt like playing it again, I'd have to go through the hassle of applying for a new subscription. What I mean to say is that it's inconvenient as hell. Given that I've played Diablo 2 off and on since it was released, I'd really hate to have to apply for a new monthly subscription just because I felt like playing it on a whim for a week.

I see Hellgate: London as one of those games you can keep returning from time to time to play, so it'd be terribly inconvenient if I had to buy a whole new monthly subscription just because I felt like playing it one day. Most people aren't willing to shell out 15 dollars on a whim.

I stopped playing Diablo 2 from 1.03-1.07, but resumed it when they released 1.08. I played until 1.09 and quit after a month and a half. I didn't play the game again for many months until 1.10 came out.

[major5013]

I totally agree with Sol. It's is a hassle. I went on and off on d2 ALOT. If i had to subscribe and unsubscribe everytime... No way.

[Yangstuh]

Im not into monthly fees... why pay constantly to keep a game fun and long lasting when u can just pick a really great game with just the initial cost and have it last just as long or LONGER than an mmo? (ex. all of the blizzard games excluding WoW)

[chakl]

After reading the interview from Hellgate spain about bill roper on the MP portion of the game, Apparently they plan to add content after the game is release. Excuse me give me a moment


HUZZAH!

Anyway, if this is the case i dont mind paying for an online portion BUT that would also mean if they plan on people actually taking this into account as a feasable and worthy option of play, the extra content must only appear in the online game. Otherwise, once again, why pay for this portion?

[Sol Invictus]

You know, one model of handling additional content (online + offline) would be to have players purchase it for 10 dollars or something. I do believe that ArenaNet planned to have this with Guild Wars but they ended up going with the full expansion (39.95) route.

[brandnewyork]

I would be extremely ticked, because I have too many college things to pay for.

[chakl]

I would be extremely ticked, because I have too many college things to pay for.
as if an extra 5-10 dollars would break the bank. Stop partying like a college kid damn it!

[Scorch]

for me it's a different question, it's: should I pay and play, or don't pay and play, because pirated servers and games are that much common in my countrry ;)

if game is good enough, i'll pay 5-10$ a month, but pay per play/day solution would be much MUCH better

[Nezerv]

I don't like the idea. at all. One of the great things about Diablo 2 was that it was 100% free to play and quite good anticheat support. I used to play wow for awhile but i couldn't afford to pay 10-12$ each month to play a game that wasen't that great. That's why i stopped playing wow and is now back in the "void".

Short story; No i don't want to pay a penny to play it online. I'd rather be back in the "void"

[Neutron Star]

...and quite good anticheat support...
You must be kidding.

[Scapes]

The Diablo series was plagued by exploit and cheat troubles. The term "SOJ" was practically synonymous with "dupe" by 1.09. Yes, the hacks were eventually dealt with, but not before the practically irrevocable damage to the game's economy was already done.

[/historyofgaminglecture]
-- Scaper-X

[Nezerv]

Neutron Star; yes and no. First of all, i have spent 90% of my time in the Diablo universe playing singleplayer/lan. The rest 10% i played multiplayer was nice, but i am not a very socialized person, and i prefer to play alone or with close friends. My best char was a lvl ~80+ necro, and honestly, i never noticed anyone stealing from me or hacking/cheating. Sure, i hear every now and then that blizzard bans/close cdkeys/accounts but still, the time i have played D2 online, it was 100% cheat free.

[major5013]

Cheating in D2 was really bad. It's half the reason I was so on/off with the game. Eventually it was so bad, everyone who cheated just blended in. And it was much harder for the legit players to keep up imo. Even just little cheats like maphack put legit players at a big disadvantage.

On topic- Monthly fees has it's pros and cons. For me, as I said before, I prefer none. But, if there was a small fee in D2, And the the cheating would have been much less because more anticheat updates. I may of paid it.. I don't know. I would rather pay a higher initial cost then pay monthly though.

[chakl]

On topic- Monthly fees has it's pros and cons. For me, as I said before, I prefer none. But, if there was a small fee in D2, And the the cheating would have been much less because more anticheat updates. I may of paid it.. I don't know. I would rather pay a higher initial cost then pay monthly though.

I doubt anybody here can justify the price of an OS (90+ dollars for home OS) for a game. How many games would you buy if they were even 80 dollars rather then the 39.99 they are now?

[major5013]

Ok...but. How many people play world of warcraft. I can buy world of warcraft for 50$. if i play for a month- My totals bill for WoW would already be like 65$. Play another month because It's an ok game -total after 2 months 80$. Personally i don't and probably never will play WoW. I'm just using it as an example

I see what your saying, but there is a huge amount of players that pay over 90$ for a game or even higher( WoW being a good example). I'm just saying i would rather pay a larger fee right away( and not worry about monthly payments) And just be done with paying for the game. It's just my opinion, and I sure not everyone would agree. But, the best scenario for me is...50$ + free multiplayer.:)

[northrop]

Good point major. If that was the case for Hellgate (higher initial cost +free online play) I can see myself paying up to $100 and have no problem with it at all. But how do you sell the product at $100 if every competitive product is at $40-$60? People who shop for games don’t usually see the whole picture, they see the cost of the game at the retail store, and that’s what they go by. I’ve experienced that myself on numerous occasions at Best Buy.

for me it's a different question, it's: should I pay and play, or don't pay and play, because pirated servers and games are that much common in my countrry ;)

if game is good enough, i'll pay 5-10$ a month, but pay per play/day solution would be much MUCH better

I hope you’re not saying what I think you’re saying.

[Sol Invictus]

I can see limited time cards (e.g. 8 hours) as a viable way to sell the game in cybercafes in places like China where piracy is prevalent. It wouldn't be viable for home users, though.

[Akuyazi]

i hope the game wont be p2p, if the game was p2p i think id still buy it since it sounds cool and ive been hanging around here for a while, might as well go all the way then heh, but i dont really like paying to play. if it does go p2p id be hoping for a lower initial cost maybe like 39.99 and go down after some time. but paying a full price of 49.99 for a standard edition game that you'll have to pay monthly for is really ridiculus imo. waste of money.

[Scorch]

I hope you’re not saying what I think you’re saying.

and what do you think I'm saying :D ??

no, I don't - cuz pirated games don't last, it's like... like cheating, when I buy pirated copy I play it for few days or so then I get bored with it (it doesn't matter how good this game is - that is how I destroyed my fallout 2 experience :sad:), but when I buy original e.g. D2, BG2 I can play it for months and months and it's still entertaining - frankly I don't know what is wrong with me ;)

so, no, I'll definitely buy this one - 100% legit :)

[AnimalCracker]

WoW has 6 million subscribers, FYI. Most popular MMO out there.

Monthly fees arent bad. $15 a month is NOTHING if you have an income. Hell, all I have is a summer job, but I could easily support WoW for the year I played it.

I still dont see this game having a monthly fee... its not an MMO......

[Syl]

40+ players in the same instance will look like an MMO.... without the lag :)

[AnimalCracker]

40+ players in the same instance will look like an MMO.... without the lag :)

Its 40 people in one instance? Link please.

[Syl]

http://www.hellgateguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=608

it's not an old news, the search button is your friend :)

[Nash]

$15 a month is NOTHING if you have an income.It's too much to spend on a game. I can find something else to do and save me that money.

[Akuyazi]

i think 15 is expensive for a game to pay for, but i dont really know since the only p2p game i ever played was EQOA for ps2 and that was like 12.99 a month :( 15 geez..

Why does everything have to be about money...

[chakl]

i think 15 is expensive for a game to pay for, but i dont really know since the only p2p game i ever played was EQOA for ps2 and that was like 12.99 a month :( 15 geez..

OK, so let me get this straight, You played 12.99 for a basterdized EQ? A game with production levels are so low, it would make some people puke. cookie cutter MMO ftl. Any other MMO you name is better then that. Sorry for the out burst.

[AnimalCracker]

It's too much to spend on a game. I can find something else to do and save me that money.

To some, games a hobby. And if you think you can have a hobby without spending much cash, you are wrong, or your hobby sucks.

[Scapes]

While that's a bit judgmental, I'm reminded of a Carlin quote.

"I have interests, not hobbies. Hobbies cost money. Interests are relatively free."
-- Scaper-X

[Yangstuh]

I am a bit distrout over the assumption that more $ = more value. I know to some degree this true and mostly is preferance based.. but seriously... im sure we are all gamers and love games.. u dont need to pay a monthly fee for more value/fun/whatever. I am pretty sure most will agree that they have played diablo2 for more than a year or so, that is a prefect example that u dont need excessive spending to have fun. Obviously its harder to find these types of games with this much value for the low cost than MMOs. But even MMOs arn't all guarunteed to last u a long time.. many only last people a year which costs much more than the average game.

[Akuyazi]

mind you only played for 2 months and one of those months being free cuz i bought the game :/

[AnimalCracker]

I am a bit distrout over the assumption that more $ = more value. I know to some degree this true and mostly is preferance based.. but seriously... im sure we are all gamers and love games.. u dont need to pay a monthly fee for more value/fun/whatever. I am pretty sure most will agree that they have played diablo2 for more than a year or so, that is a prefect example that u dont need excessive spending to have fun. Obviously its harder to find these types of games with this much value for the low cost than MMOs. But even MMOs arn't all guarunteed to last u a long time.. many only last people a year which costs much more than the average game.


D2 also didnt have huge servers to worry about maintaining because they were only 8 player games...

[7MGTE]

This is how i would feel about a monthly fee:
Looking back at the D2 days, i was playing the game for about 5 years continously (1.01-1.09d) and then on and off after that(1.10+). When i first started, i really loved the game, and would play ATLEAST 3 hours a day (nothing to be proud of but read up, im trying to make a point). If there are 30 days in a month, at 3+ hours a day thats 90 hours a month ATLEAST.
Do some math, and if i had to pay 10$ per month for 90 hours of playing time, thats 11 cents/hour.

Now someone PLEASE tell me, where else are you gonna find entertainment for 11 cents an hour? Assuming that HG:L is as good as D2 was, i would be more than glad to pay a monthly fee, ESPECIALLY if it would aid in better controlling the cheats/dupes (and filtering out most of the pre-teen crowd).
Someone said that D2 was good at this (dealing with hacks). Thats the funniest comment ive heard in a while. Duping is what RUINED D2. If Blizzard did a better job of controlling the duping, i'd probably be still playing to this day. At one point duping was almost as bad as in D1 - you could get a SOJ (an item originally designed to be extremely difficult to find) by just begging for one in public games. I REALLY hope that FSS can do a better job at this.

Thanks

P.S. This is my first post, so i would also like to take this opportunity to say hello to everyone!

[Akuyazi]

GW is free and there are really no serious hacks and duping problems there :/ and when someone finds an exploit they usually fix it pretty fast.. you cant just say to p2p just to play a protected game becuase there will always be some bugs and exploits and stuff its just a matter of how fast they fix it.


Hi! welcome to Hellgate Guru, hope you enjoy the place :)

[northrop]

But what you’re forgetting is that not everyone has time to spend 3hrs/day every day of the month. Some people have jobs, go to school and have other responsibilities that may limit their free time to play only 1-2 hours per week. And this isn’t uncommon, few of my friends resigned from WoW for that reason.

And welcome to the forum! 8)

[chakl]

GW is free and there are really no serious hacks and duping problems there :/ and when someone finds an exploit they usually fix it pretty fast.. you cant just say to p2p just to play a protected game becuase there will always be some bugs and exploits and stuff its just a matter of how fast they fix it.

Saying there are no serious hacks or duping problems in GW is just silly. First of all there is nothing worth duping in GW as all the items are really identical and have no special properties, that said the only important thing in GW was yoru skill set and the skills you grinded for, which werent possible to do becuase well... they are skills. Serious hacks? I remember a hack for GW that allowed you toaccess your entire spell book and swap out spells from your' quick bar WHILE outside of town; in the instanced areas. Strategy and skill went right out that fucking window for GW long ago.

[northrop]

I’m not sure if this exploit still holds or not, but I remember that in the area right before fighting the Mirror Self, you had to go through three tests or something. Anyway, all those areas where you take the test are behind the gate. After opening the gate a 30 min timer would start up. The only problem with that is the timer starts when the gate opens, not when players enter the area. That did not stop my groups from pushing each other through the gate and have unlimited time to complete the task.

Does anyone know if they fixed that?

[Syl]

certainly.
another bug was to use necro's teleport skill to kill enemies without opening the gate.

[Nash]

GW's architecture was a nice concept for cheat prevention and keeping the game fair, too bad they made poor use of it and just let blatant balance/completeness issues be.

[Sol Invictus]

Not to get on the topic of Guild Wars again but I think that a lot of lessons can be learned from the mistakes they made with it. For instance, the blatant balance/completeness issues that Nash brought up could have been easily addressed overnight with their 'streaming' technology, and some simple math. Instead, they'd take weeks to address anything due to lack of testers, and by then they'd have lost thousands of players because no real competitive gamer wants to play an imbalanced game. Which is basically what happened.

[Yangstuh]

D2 also didnt have huge servers to worry about maintaining because they were only 8 player games...
Your missing the point.. the game was still fun as hell for many people.. lasting for years............. without any monthly fees. In fact, many people admitted that they would pay a monthly fee for it, because it was so fun.

[PureAcid]

to accept a fee ( weekly/ monthly) for gaming opens up a port for set fee on OS ( OperativeSystem) like MS Windows, ( not many games are able to run under linux/wine) that will soon give that we have to pay per minute? per hour/day/ week/ etc to use our OS. this game fee is jsut a trial from the market to check out how "hungry" users are.. I can NOT stand without my OS. or computer.

[chakl]

Your missing the point.. the game was still fun as hell for many people.. lasting for years............. without any monthly fees. In fact, many people admitted that they would pay a monthly fee for it, because it was so fun.

you're missing the point, B.net at its core was nothing more then a match making service. all games were instanced and took place at a seperate place then thier servers. To me it seems as if it was a giant irc client with integrated gamespy3d. it was able to maintain itself with minimal upkeep.

[Yangstuh]

ok i think u guys are misunderstanding me.. i am not trying to say diablo2 was an MMO that has no monthly fees....

*sigh* THe bottom line is that the game is fun and lasts for many people a long time without having to pay a fee. Again, I am not saying diablo2 is in any form an MMO.. I've played computer games of all types most of my life.. and can easily distinguish between them. I will even use starcraft or warcraft as an example.. they last years as well. I've played all types of FPS/RTS/RPG/MMOs for a long time, and after a while.. after all that.. it comes to which 1 gives u the most fun for the longest time for your money. Im talking about what lasts in terms of fun and value from your money.

Again.. like i mentioned before in previous posts... i know that it can be preferance based. Some people like mmos and not the other catagories... so i can understand that. But given my extremely diverse gaming background.. my opinion is not biased.. I dont cling to either side.

[Zeremi]

After I hear that there will be monthly fees (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4563849971569374929&q=crazy)

[13hades13]

After I hear that there will be monthly fees (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4563849971569374929&q=crazy)


that was ... frightening. anyone know what he was saying? i think it was german ...

[Zeremi]

This might be off topic but...

''HGL will have mon...'' Click to see the end (http://www.spikedhumor.com/articles/16418/What_a_Reaction.html?autoplay=true)

[Killmojo]

After I hear that there will be monthly fees (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4563849971569374929&q=crazy)

Yeah... he needs a time out. Or a doctor.

[Sol Invictus]

That boy needs therapy!

Pathetic how Ebaumsworld put their tag on it, though. It was on one of those upload-it-yourself media sites before anything else, with a translation, to boot.

[Jason]

On main topic...

I agree with Nash.

Correct me if i'm wrong, Blizzard doesn't host player Diablo 2 games, the user does, therefore there is no over zealous reason to force the player to pay a monthly fee.

If the game remains player hosted, then there's no need to charge money for a lobby which direct connects peers, as it is a very minimalistic requirement compaired to that of a MMORPG.

Ofcourse, with 40-50 man raids, im sure that we won't beable to host these games on your everyday connection. So why not implement some sort of system, similiar to that of BitTorrent? Instead of all traffic going directly to one "seed" can't we setup a seeding system? People with higher upload speeds send data to those with lower download speeds? Thus removing the need for the high cost equiptment which would in effect, require you to pay to keep the game services alive.

[Sol Invictus]

You are wrong.

Blizzard does host the multiplayer games, which is why you can lose your connection to the server should Battle.net ever go down. If players hosted the multiplayer games, then it would be very easy for them to perform client-side cheats on their characters.

Having a 40-50 man raid hosted on a system similar to BitTorrent would lead to all sorts of out-of-sync connection issues. If you can't stream movies from a BitTorrent type interface, what makes you think it's any more viable for a real time game? BitTorrent files must be compiled as a single archive, and then fragmented into a series of blocks, so downloads perform as quickly as the blocks are available for you to download. This is opposite to the classic linear method, in which a file is downloaded in a linear fashion (Alpha to Omega). Streaming videos, music, and yes, even games, are downloaded in a linear fashion. If you ever tried to listen to an on-going bittorrent music download you'd only get bits and pieces of the song and lots of gaps in-between.

It just doesn't work that way.

[Jason]

Thanks for clearing that up.

As per BitTorrent, yes, it is designed for files, but its a theory, a theory that could work for games. Think of the benefits and how it could victor, rather than its con's and how it could fail.

[Sol Invictus]

You have to consider everything. I don't believe that BitTorrent is viable as a streaming protocol.

[chakl]

You are wrong.

Blizzard does host the multiplayer games, which is why you can lose your connection to the server should Battle.net ever go down. If players hosted the multiplayer games, then it would be very easy for them to perform client-side cheats on their characters.



You are also wrong to a certain extent. Blizzard does not Host the actual multiplayer games, the user does. However Blizzard functions as a connection node/lobby for the player and handles all player data on thier server. its the same thing as the original diablo where a certain seed is generated and shared to all the players, but instead of the players generating that seed, its Battle.net generating that seed.Thats why if you were to lose connection to battle.net you can still continue to play, but it wont save and it wont generate a new area. So the game itself is played on the users computer, but battle.net handles all random number generating and character data. If one user were to lose connection and that user happened to be the host, it would designate a new host where the game would be played. The reason why diablo 2 on closed b.net was difficult to hack is becuase it actually keeps track of data serverside. if you were to try to change the MPQ mid game to change the item generator to drop more rare item, on closed B.net it wouldnt work, however on open b.net it would work without any problems.

[Syl]

BitTorrent sends random chunks of data, you can't compare it with real time data exchange in a video game.
and if noone "seed" the game, the network is dead. bad idea.

[Klael]

I have no qualm buying 2 games a month but I will not pay monthly to play a single game, at least for now. I guess its just me.

[Jormund]

I would feel angry at you Nash, you for bringing this curse down upon all of us and ruining it!

[Sol Invictus]

Come on. Let's face some facts here. You can't use BitTorrent to stream game data in real time. I don't want to play a game in 'blocks' of lag.

[Beololol]

Depends how much the monthly fee is. WoW was to much.

[oneeyered]

First off whoever suggested bit torrent as a portal for MP that's just insane. Bit torrent is a terrible program and yes I have used many, many times. it works great for the guy on dial up connection because he bleeds my 6 meg connection I pay a lot of money for dry. It is terrible for file downloads alone and could not imagine it hosting anything.

As a long time MMORPG player (ten years now) I cannot see HgL charging a subscription fee and also allowing single player style gaming. This game is not designed to be a stand alone MMO and I really do not think that is the market they want to take. I was a beta tester for WOW for two years and played on/off after release and yea it may hold a whole lot of numbers it is a shallow MMO at best. Grinding out lvl 60 toons in 3 weeks is a breeze and in comparison to other MMO's bleh. But this is not even a MMO so comparing the two is ridiculous to begin with.

Now if they had some secure server side MP and to do this it cost 5 bucks a month and you got free content too I might bite. But no way in hell I am paying 15 bucks a month for it. Hell, the current MMo population out there isn't worth 15 bucks a month either. I would say HgL is going to be mor ein competition with games like NWN 2, Titan's Quest for certain. Same diablo style premise in play style only with no fee's. I personally will own both.

[brinstar]

I don't think I would pay a monthly fee for this game. I expect to devote most of my time to a single-player campaign, and maybe a teeny bit of co-op. Honestly, there are too many other games that I am playing, or expect to play, and charging a fee will make me feel guilty if I can't devote X number of hours per week to it. Like what's happened with my WOW account...

[Roland]

If I enjoy the game, which all indications are I will :)

I wouldn't mind a monthly fee to insure stable, hack, cheat free servers for multi games.

(pretty much would depend on how they implimented the multi-games I guess...like was said above, if there was more content and game "types" PvP ect...then it would be an easier pill to swallow so to speak.)

Regards,

:cool:

[lucas_14]

well i wouldent cuz monthly fees sucks and they .. suck some more well hope they take away the fees so i can play!:)

[Arkaith]

I wouldn't mind paying so long as its not too expensive (after all I do live in a 3rd world country (South Africa) and dont have a job, tho I want one!) and that I get value for it. Otherwise, I would think free is better.

Arkaith

[Scapes]

hope they take away the fees so i can play!
As of this time, whether the game will or will not have fees of any kind for online play remains to be seen.

Note the "if" in the thread subject.
-- Scaper-X

[morac]

I'd be pretty put out, and may not play. After, they have been rather against monthly fees up until now.

[chakl]

Now to tell you the truth, This has been brooding in my head since it has been said that it may be concidered. Now on the one hand I hate your average MMO, not becuase of of the monthly fees really, but rather becuase of content provided. I personally have a active subscription to wow, but i barely play it becuase no matter what i do i will be pegeon holed in one way or another till the end game, where even then i am pigeon holed and expected to play a particular role within a group, and just follow in the footsteps of those who played before me. It becomes repetitive and boring and the content they supply in my opinion is not enough to warrant a monthly fee.
But lets say they decided to go with a different pay model, where they allow people to pay a premium monthly fee for VIP treatment. paying for a game on a monlthy fee basis will help the developers out, and it will give them incentive to create more content. If i could pay 15 dollars a month for a game that truly evolves, i will. But the problem is concidering what is evolution for a game. If its just adding new items and areas to be found in a pokemon like fashion, does that trully warrant a monthly fee?

[Neutron Star]

And the trouble with fees is that content tends to be created just to keep you playing for a long time. Long, boring quests. Big areas with little variation. Slow if not very slow character advancement. I'm not looking for that, but that's what most MMO's give you for that $15 a month. So you fork over that subscription fee again next month. Bleh.

[Beololol]

Give me Beta and make the game free for Beta testers.

But if the game does have monthly fees, shoulden't be to much of a problem, as long as you can accept Canadian credit cards. WoW seemed like to much a month for me though, keep it lower than that.

[Just Call Me 'Mistress']

monthly fee would ruin the game

think of us college students -_-

[Zeremi]

I dont think there is even possible to be monthly fee's (if somebody has said this, im sorry...) becaus its SP too, I dont think that game with SP would have monthly fee's, even if it gots MP... Well, ofcourse its possible but I think it would be stupid.

[chakl]

Give me Beta and make the game free for Beta testers.


You should be shot.They arent making the game for you. They are making the game for themselves. They are also spending countless hours of labor on the game. I wanna see you pay the salaries of a team of developers.

Give me Beta, and let us help make it better is what i say!

monthly fee would ruin the game

think of us college students -_-
Even if the monthly fee meant craploads of new content on regularly scheduled intervals?

[Sol Invictus]

I wouldn't mind monthly fees if there was, as chakl said, 'craploads' of new content on regularly scheduled intervals. I mean, if they added new color and equipment sets every couple of weeks and dungeon types every month or so, I'd definitely pay for it.

It all depends on how much they'd add.

20 dollar addon packs every couple of months (a la EQ2) wouldn't be bad, either.

[Nightsorrow]

If I will have to pay monthly for the game to play in Single-Player, then I will most likely not buy it.

If I will miss out on content (New colour schemes, areas, monsters, weapons, armors, you name it) in my Single-Player becuse I am not paying for the Multi-Player part, again, then I will most likely not buy it.

If you just have to pay for the Multi-Player part only, and dont miss out on anything (Except the ability to play online) buy not doing so, then I will buy the game and just mess around in Single-Player.


If I have to pay monthly for a game, then I will spend to much time playing it to make up for the cost. I just dont like the idea of it, at all.


With that said, if this is even in the same league as Diablo (And I have no reason to doubt it) in terms of how well constructed and complete (design and content wise) this game is, then I would prefer that FSS start brainstorming and getting to work on another game, instead of updating HG:L on a weekly or monthly basis. Not that those 2 are mutually exclusive, but...

[Sol Invictus]

Like I said, they could simply use an expansion pack system. Release some micro-expansions every 2 months and have people pay for the content within those packs.

[Zeremi]

20 dollar addon packs every couple of months wouldn't be bad, either.
You mean like you can pay to get your characters max level 20 to 30 or you can get pack that gives 5 new sets for this class (I mean they can drop to you and you can use them)... Or just big packs, expansions that you can buy?

[chakl]

Like I said, they could simply use an expansion pack system. Release some micro-expansions every 2 months and have people pay for the content within those packs.

What a way to milk a franchise.

I believe that the Single player and the multiplayer portion should be seperate in terms of modules IF there is a monthly fee. If they introduce a monthly fee for the online portion (example: Final Fantasy: Dirge of cerberus-sp?) and use the monthly fee to justify the extra work for the multiplayer portion. I doubt if a game had both single player and multiplayer modes, that it would make sense to charge a monthly fee just to get into the game (charge for a single player experience?). I expect that if the developers would want to constantly upgrade the multiplayer experience they would need capita to do so, and the best way to do it is with a monthly fee. Once a game is "finished" there is no incentive to continue work on it, especially if they will get nothing for thier efforts.

If they do choose to charge a monthly fee for the Multiplayer portion of the game. I expect there to be added content and added upgrades to the game over time, otherwise i simply dont see why they would want to charge. They can make money the same way they did on Battle.net with advertising and such.

*presses the gem* maybe i will get that friggin SOJ now.

[Monster With 21 Faces]

If they can warrent the charge with a persistant world, PvP and PvE events, a global economy and no uber class I'd be willing to pay monthly for hellgate.

However I would have to request the freedom and flexibility of mods that we've seen in WoW. I wouldn't have played WoW for more than 2 hours if it hadn't been for all the little mods and tweaks that made it playable.

[Nightsorrow]

Like I said, they could simply use an expansion pack system. Release some micro-expansions every 2 months and have people pay for the content within those packs.

Sadly, that goes into the fact that It wont be able to play the "full" game without paying extra. If the payment is "just" for the multi-player part, then I will be kinda happy since I can play the Single-player "full" version without extra cost. If it will be as you say, that a "patch" or expansion pack will be availiable every two months and that has a cost tied to it, then I wont be able to play the "full" game without extra cost.

If FFS think they Need the extra money gained from a continuesly (Spelling check please? :) ) payment, then I, personally, would prefer it to be just for the the Online part, so that I can enjoy the Single player With the added content Without payment.

[chakl]

If they can warrent the charge with a persistant world, PvP and PvE events, a global economy and no uber class I'd be willing to pay monthly for hellgate.

However I would have to request the freedom and flexibility of mods that we've seen in WoW. I wouldn't have played WoW for more than 2 hours if it hadn't been for all the little mods and tweaks that made it playable.


Those mods alone made wow that much better. they affected the game's UI to actual macros making any player's life easy.

[northrop]

Like I said, they could simply use an expansion pack system. Release some micro-expansions every 2 months and have people pay for the content within those packs.

Yeah right. Let's make another BF2. I must disagree with you here. I’d rather pay monthly fee then be forced to buy some expansion packs every 2 months at $20 a pop only to stay competitive. Even tho, all the expenses come out to be the roughly the same at the end.

[Zeremi]

Yeah right. Let's make another BF2. I must disagree with you here. I’d rather pay monthly fee then be forced to buy some expansion packs every 2 months at $20 a pop only to stay competitive. Even tho, all the expenses come out to be the roughly the same at the end.
Yeah... Every 2 month is too fast for me. Some little updates and so on and when its good time to make biig expansion, make it. I dont wanna buy so many expansions... If the game rocks, I could buy 2 expansion...

But whatever, the game wont have monthly fee's! I dont care about expansions! I just want the game!! (And expansions if there is one to get... or two...)

[Narnach]

I play Eve Online now, used to play WoW before that. Monthly fees to play in a multiplayer setting that has regular updates are no problem for me.

Pay 15 euros to go to the movie twice, that's like 3 hours of entertainment?
Pay 15 euros to play a game for 120+ hours a month?

Hmm... Hard choice. Oh yes... :D

[Scapes]

HEARTING Eve Online.

<3 14-day trials.
-- Scaper-X

[Brother Laz]

Anyone remember the Realms-only godly runewords in D2 1.10, made by one Isolde aka phu? Sounds like they're going to make the best items only available in multiplayer, then force people to pay to play online.

This ties in nicely with the fact that Roper said moddability would take a backseat to multiplayer security. They don't want anyone to make a mod and unlock those items in single player.

We've all been had...

......

PS: if this game does have a monthly fee, I'm not buying it. Partly because it'll be dead on arrival, partly because I don't know beforehand how much I'll play in a given month if at all.

[chakl]

Anyone remember the Realms-only godly runewords in D2 1.10, made by one Isolde aka phu? Sounds like they're going to make the best items only available in multiplayer, then force people to pay to play online.

This ties in nicely with the fact that Roper said moddability would take a backseat to multiplayer security. They don't want anyone to make a mod and unlock those items in single player.

We've all been had...

......

PS: if this game does have a monthly fee, I'm not buying it. Partly because it'll be dead on arrival, partly because I don't know beforehand how much I'll play in a given month if at all.


We've all been had? Dead on arrival? The game is going to have single player reguardless. besides who cares what you unlock in singleplayer, you are only going to get bored of the game faster by constantly cheating. In multiplayer i can show off my ph4t l3wt. Also i dont know anyone who played d2 singler player personally as i always took my character online for the simple social aspect.


After all Masterbation is the best single player game :p

[Mercurio]

I agree with Dynotaku...

I should pay a monty fee for a good game, but I don't want to play only a game for a month!

I want an epic experience, a story, a challenge, and an end, as DiabloX was, with great replay value (I still play it!), no farming/grind/levelling etc.

p.s: I like GuildWars a lot :P

[Beololol]

I like Diablo and Guild wars also, but I played them to much and am bored now.

I quit diablo when 1.09 came out, that was a long time ago :O

and I recently sold my guildwars account, I now play on my second one. 220 dollar American profit ^^

[Lex]

GW got A LOT of credits and players because it didn't have a monthly fee.

I think that there could be like an extra payment for MP support, mut absolutely no monthly nor any constant fee. I know a lot of people who resist games with monthly fees just because of their principals.

[Zeremi]

I know a lot of people who resist games with monthly fees just because of their principals.
Now you know one more...

I think mothly fees are just ridiculous! Maybe someone can say that WoW is worth monthly fees but I dont think gaming is worth like about 100€ in year.

Thats just me...

[Mercurio]

I think mothly fees are just ridiculous! Maybe someone can say that WoW is worth monthly fees but I dont think gaming is worth like about 100€ in year.
Thats just me...

I don't think gaming is worth like about 10 hours of my life each day :rolleyes:

[Zeremi]

I don't think gaming is worth like about 10 hours of my life each day :rolleyes:
If you say that I like, your wrong. If someone spend 10h to games every day, he/she might like/use monthly fee games. Now I dont, becaus I dont play so much... So its stupid to pay so much if you dont even have time to do it!

[Syl]

MMO have monthly fee to pay servers and bandwidth (and maybe free addons and game masters). So basically, if you don't want the gamer to pay monthly fee, don't do an online game.
BUT... if the game doesn't have a trick to keep the community alive, the game will be sold very well at the beginning, then noone will talk about it anymore. So a good way to keep the community alive is to have an online game, the community can share gameplay experience. And the game will continue to live for years.
I think about Diablo (2) and a little bit Elder Scroll 3 (which you can play offline only I think, but the game has a good engine to create mod), Oblivion will certainly live, thanks to its mod engine (and it seems to be a good game as well).

Lex : nice (Tyrian) avatar :)

[Lex]

Lex : nice (Tyrian) avatar :)

Yayy, I thought that im probably one of the only people in this world ever heard of Tyrian (and still playing it) \o/.

Everybody tell always that how great the "free" updates are in WoW, these people are always forgetting that they are paying a "lot" of money for the addiction, just like nicotine addiction. To think how much buzz this game (Hellgate: London) has made up, I think Flahgship Studios shouldn't be worried about dying poor and so on because they didn't implement the monthly payment to the game. :)

[Eternalchaos]

:cry: I am not a fan of monthly fee's. I don't like paying for something I already paid for unless the fee is small and universal , sorta of like xbox live.. $50 a year bought me online play and most free updates for a year for EVERY XBOX LIVE GAME

not no $10-$15 a month for a single game. The thing is.. Hellgate has to be the first game that I may be willing to pay to play only if the MP is amazing. GW is great for free.. but if I had to pay to play, like in Japan, Taiwan etc... I'd never buy the game its not worth it.

One idea a few people touched on that I like is working with FSS' idea about routine updates. Updates I assume they mean content, not like GW where you get pretty much BS done on a monthly basis, and maybe twice a year you get something decent.

If this "content" is quality content.. like adjusting guns, more mods, tweaking this or taht.. a new enemy class etc.. they could release the game as free to play SP and MP and perhaps make you pay for content. Either you pay for certain features to "unlock" for your CDkey, or you simply buy an upgrade disk in the store and add your key to your account. If they do major updates every quarter.. thats like $20 every 3 months which comes out to around $6.75 per month to play, but you are getting quality updates every 3 months, and you aren't required to give a credit card also :) its optional.

[Jugalator]

MMO have monthly fee to pay servers and bandwidth (and maybe free addons and game masters). So basically, if you don't want the gamer to pay monthly fee, don't do an online game.
It's a bit more complicated than this, or Guild Wars with its free updates (many even having new content too) would have to have monthly fees too, with their worldwide network centers and major bandwidth costs. And they have game masters who look after illegal character names and so on as well, along with informing the community in-game of upcoming patches. Costs for paying game masters and developers also have to be a drop in the ocean compared to the $100+ million Blizzard get per month these days from the fees. :) (IIRC, it's ~$10 per month with probably over 10 million gamers) I think it has a lot to do with greed, and some to do with the kind of server infrastructure they need for uninstanced games. What points in a good direction for HGL is that it's not uninstanced, but "mostly instanced" like Guild Wars, with anything but outpost being instances, at least according from what I've heard so far. Although on the other hand, that didn't stop D&D Online from going pay-to-play though. :p

[Eternalchaos]

thing is.. GW is only Free to play in Europe and America and Korea

Taiwan and Japan both have to pay $5/mo


but you know what.. $5 / mo is alright.. I mean xbox live is only around $4.25 a month. It beats the $15 / mo games like WoW cost. Think about it

after just 10 months you've payed $200 just for the game. 20 months.. $350

if you stop playing WoW, gotta cancel your account becuase you'll constantly get billed. So say if you get injured in a car accident and can't be on your PC for 3 months... thats $45 down the drain or loss of your entire acount and progress...

[Silver]

I've canceld wow for like 8 months, I subbed 1 month everything was still there. I don't think they wipe that much. Then again, thats like 4 months ago, could be gone. Hell if I care.

[Eternalchaos]

Wow... my friend must of got screwed then cause he took a few months off.. resubscribed and most of his stuff was gone and he was so far behind in the game he was simply PK'd for fun because no one wanted to help him do lower level quests lol...

[Sol Invictus]

It isn't gone. WOW characters stay on the server forever.

[Eternalchaos]

Thats what I'm being told also.. I got a feeling he deleted one of his characters by accident and didn't realize it <.< yes.. I did that in GW.. accidently dumped my Ele with 15K armor and a rune of sup vigor. ; _ ; all that money down the drain *cries and farms a victo's bulwark and makes back 80K *

[Brother Laz]

besides who cares what you unlock in singleplayer, you are only going to get bored of the game faster by constantly cheating.

Point is, if single players are denied content, it creates lots of angry single players. You should have seen the outrage on the diabloii.net single player forum when the 1.11 bonus quest was multiplayer only.

Also i dont know anyone who played d2 singler player personally as i always took my character online for the simple social aspect.

Doesn't mean there isn't anyone who plays single player. Again, look at the SPF, the busiest forum at diabloii.net.

Many people actually don't play multiplayer because of the constant rush offers, random PK attempts, maphackers and people bragging about their cheated/ebayed ubar l00tz and calling you a noob because you don't have 'ebotdz' and Enigma.

......

Point is, making content unavailable in single player to force people to p(l)ay multiplayer is a very cheap tactic and it's sad to see they used it in D2 1.10 and may well use it again in HG:L.

[Eternalchaos]

I played Diablo 2 mostly offline. While MP was alot of fun , at the same time its tough playing with people you don't know in that game. A lot of loot stealing and stuff went on with my experience. When I did have friends who had diablo2 we mainly did open MP and played LAN games. Same with WC3 actually. While I played a ton of MP, i did alot of LAN at the same time.

[Paek]

.... For those supporting the no expansion, no monthly fee camp, one question.. What do you do when the game ends? You are going to beat the game and get the phattest lewt before the next "big" expansion comes out, and what are you going to do? Nothing, you are going to go the next game, what about those who want to keep playing the game and want something fresh? A fast expansion system or monthly fee for updates would work out great for those people! Personally I feel a fast expansion system would be the best model as you could pick and choose which expansions you want. It also works nicely as this game isn't strictly competitive, so you don't >need< the expansion to keep playing your same old game. I goto college and do this thing called working, so I can easily afford 15$ a month if needed. Anyone who can't but has access to the internet makes no sense. I also woudl like to point out like others have said the hours enjoyed with an online game compared to the hours enjoyed of a movie:P

At any rate, I would pay for content... >content<

[Zeremi]

When my character is "done", I make another... Or then something fun at the game, like in-game movie or funny screenshots or make my own fansite... I love games that always got something to do better or something thats better then yours.

[Kriact]

If the fee is more then $5 I probably won't be online with it.

If they're worried about funding their game, maybe they could just charge for the updates they're planning on doing.

[Brother Laz]

.... For those supporting the no expansion, no monthly fee camp, one question.. What do you do when the game ends?

The same thing we did in Diablo 2. ;)

If they're worried about funding their game, maybe they could just charge for the updates they're planning on doing.

I'll say it again: if they're worried about funding their game, they should make hellgatelondon.com actually halfway decent so people aren't disappointed by what looks like a FPS made in a third world country. ;)

[Nightsorrow]

I'll say it again: if they're worried about funding their game, they should make hellgatelondon.com actually halfway decent so people aren't disappointed by what looks like a FPS made in a third world country. ;)

True... A bit sad, but true

[pdvinenz]

If it gives the same quality as Battle.Net (without the hacking mind you) and same feeling as Diablo II on MP, I would definatly pay for it. Not a doubt.

Paying a monthly fee will only make the game better. As you can expect new content and patches to be released on a regular basis. Not like the incredibly long wait for the 1.10 patch for Diablo II :D

[Eternalchaos]

Even though GW is boring because of how the game is... how they handle the no monthly fee is great.. for one.. Taiwan, Japan, Hong Kong they all are paying a montly fee because they are willing.. Korea, N. America and Europe do not pay a monthly fee.. but are charged $50 for chapter 1 and every expansion they must pay $50. Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan they are getting the expansion included for free being they pay $5/mo by the end of the year they will have already paid for it :)

A game can go without monthly fees for support.. best way to do this is pay for content. every few months lets say is Hellgate expansion comes out... charge $30 for each update.. as long as the updates are awesome people would keep buying them. It eliminates the need for monthly fees and monitoring credit cards yet at the same time in the end, you pay the same per month 1 expansion update every 4 months for $30 ~ $7.50/mo which is half of what WoW charges.. but now you do'nt eliminate people who don't have credit cards or aren't willing to play a game that charges you on a monthly basis :)

could also try a yearly fee.. rather than sayy.. $10/mo do something like.. $70 per year.. like an anti virus subscription ^_^ youpay for a year and when it expires.. you purchase it again or let it stay expired.. one time charges seem to go over way better than monthly.. look at xbox live.. 1 time purchase per year...

[Kriact]

I got a feeling they're going to charge. They see how long Diablo II's going on and they are making something just like it with better graphics, first person, and a new setting. I'm sure they'll be taking their cash this time around.

[chakl]

A game can go without monthly fees for support.. best way to do this is pay for content. every few months lets say is Hellgate expansion comes out... charge $30 for each update.. as long as the updates are awesome people would keep buying them. It eliminates the need for monthly fees and monitoring credit cards yet at the same time in the end, you pay the same per month 1 expansion update every 4 months for $30 ~ $7.50/mo which is half of what WoW charges.. but now you do'nt eliminate people who don't have credit cards or aren't willing to play a game that charges you on a monthly basis :)

could also try a yearly fee.. rather than sayy.. $10/mo do something like.. $70 per year.. like an anti virus subscription ^_^ youpay for a year and when it expires.. you purchase it again or let it stay expired.. one time charges seem to go over way better than monthly.. look at xbox live.. 1 time purchase per year...


For the record if you work, 15 dollars a month is nothing. hell even 50 dollars a month is nothing. Also, if you live in the modern world and are 18 or over, chances are you have a credit card or a debit card. If you dont have one i would say you are actually in the minority. If you have a bank account, You can get a debit card which works like a credit card. If you are under 18, you probobly dont meet the ESRB rating to play this game anyway.

[Krazy Kaution]

Hahah chakl just put it ALL into perspective for ya :) Served. Personally, even though some may disagree, $50 a month isn't a big deal IF you don't spend your money on a lot of other things. Like me, I buy shit all the time, every day lol so I spend a lot of money which makes $15/month looks a little more than your average working person. Even then though, $15/month for something you spend 20+ hours a month doing is worth it. Tell me, what other things can you do for $15 and have up to 200 hours per month doing? Those that have cheap DSL that's $20 think about it. You hardly even think about your DSL cuz you use your internet all the time. That's how HG:L is gonna be. You're gonna ignore the $15/month cuz the amount of time and fun going into and coming out of is going to be worth it entirely.

A concert here in sacramento with Avenged Sevenfold and Coheed and Cambria costs $37 if you buy your ticket online or $28 at the window. Now tell me, the amount of enjoyment at that concert is really high, but it's only a few hours and you can't do it again whenever you want.

Where as HG:L you can repeat or do whenever you want to and have 40-60 hours per week of fun if you really wanted to (if you have nothing else to do that is hehe). I think $15/month is a good amount, but then again, a lot of gamers aren't 18+ and i find that there are too many under 18 (sorry, but most of them make the good ones look bad).

[Scapes]

There's always panhandling.

Heard those folks can make rent by begging alone.
-- Scaper-X

[Sectus]

I'm a greedy person and I'd never get Hellgate: London if it had a monthly fee. A monthly fee wouldn't make sense anyway. Normally games have a monthly fee to make sure the development team get paid for regular updates, and pay for maintenance of the host servers. As far as I know, Hellgate won't get free content updates, and I really doubt they'll be hosting massive servers for the game.

[Nightsorrow]

There will always be people that are willing to pay a monthly fee for a game, and there will always be people that are not. If you have a monthly fee, you will lose the players that dont want to pay it. There is basicly 3 ways to get the players that dont want to pay, to buy and play the game anyway:

1. Simply, dont have a montly fee. I see no reason for a game like this to have it, not really. Not that I see that reason in any game really, perhaps some MMO's, but other then that, no.

2. Pay for content updates. This provides a choice, to either buy the uppgrades or to not to. However, the choice can also be seen in a completly negative perspective.
Either, pay money for the updates, or play an incomplete game. While the pay/update might be good in the way that everytime yo pay money, you get something out of it, it also has downsides, such as the negative view.

3. Pay for a specifik part, most likely the multiplayer version. This is in my opinion the best way if you need/want a monthly fee. You will still be able to play the singleplayer version, without paying, and the people that want to play multiplayer, will pay for it.


As I said, I prefer the third choice (or the first :P ) since that gives me the option of just playing singleplayer, wich is what I will spend most of my time with the game doing anyway. And since most other games that have a montly fee are MMO's, it makes sense in that matter aswell.

So, preferably, no fee at all. But, if it will be a fee, I hope for a fee just for the multiplayer, leaving the singleplayer mode free of charge for the people that dont like monthly paying.

[northrop]

As far as I know, Hellgate won't get free content updates, and I really doubt they'll be hosting massive servers for the game.
I would agree with you on this one. We may not see uber updates, like complete acts added to the game, but I’m confident FSS won’t leave the game as is on the release.

And if they plan on supporting +40 people raids, they better have massive servers.

[Krazy Kaution]

Not while i live by them anyways!!! LOL That's not a threat, it's a promise. Shit will ignite if this game gets no support!

[Eternalchaos]

lol.. I can easily affording $15 a month.. I just am against montly fee's.. I rather perfer a yearly fee.. I am not comfortable being billed monthly by a gaming company.

Utilities is different .. remember what happen with WoW with that huge securityleak that got fixed after a while.. where DM's could look inside your PC and even had access to your credit card #'s... Would be nice if they pulled an Xbox live sort of method... Have subscription cards over simply inputting your credit card into your game..

We'll see though.. for one.. they can't charge you a monthly fee to play offline SP... In the end I still go back to having to see the final product before I will be willing to drop a monthly fee or not on a game.

[AllHazzardi]

I'd play/pay it anyway, regardless of monthly fee, it just looks that good so far. Besides, the way I look at it... if they do a monthly fee, that just means the box cost is actually $15 less than what it shows. That, and $50 box cost + $15 per month is a lot cheaper than $50 box cost every month for a new game once the other one gets old.

[Eternalchaos]

:twisted: well :) my original idea was an update every 4 months... which you pay for

say each update is $30..

$15 a month and game comes out in January

$50 + first month free..
11x$15 = 165
Tota. for the year.. $215.00

$50 w/ update every 4 months

$50 + $30 + $30 + $30 = $140.00 a yeah of course if they do $50 per 4month update that's $200 a yeah.. :) still cheaper and you now can include those who refuse to pay a monthly fee..

btw.. I'm just presenting the alternative to monthly fee's.. as I said before if the game warrents its.. I'd gladly pay a monthly fee but ^_^ gotta have at least someone playing both sides *evil laugh*:twisted:

[iB@32]

I think another way that is relatively new to make constant income from online games is by in game advertisments- this market seems to grow realy fast , Nielsen reserch groop predicts that the total income from in-game advetisments will grow from 75 mil USD in 2005 to 1bil USD by 2010 .
Considering the fact that hellgate probably wont be released before the end of Q1 2007 (and if we can learn from D2 case - it probably wont be out before Q3 2009:) ) the market might be big enough to support an MMO sized development staff just from advetisments.

The only problem is that since the developers will want to keep you playing for a long time there is the fear of boring grinding coming into the game... sadlly most devlopers dont get that there are much better ways to increase game longetivity , I played both D2 and RTCW:ET for more than 2 years each and didnt feel them getting realy repetetive, a felling that I got even from most MMOS Betas that I played for several weeks/days (while I never payed for an MMO , I have a vast experience with them thanks to the lovely 2-4 months open beta stages that some devlopers make, I mean - I usually dump this repetitive junk after 1 month, so why bother to pay when you can play for free?)

Anyway back to the main topic, adding ads in loading screens/chat lobies can be a great way to support an ever developing game, it is also possible to add in game ads, but there is a great danger in it since the ads must ft the world you are in, if I'll walk in the burning street of london and suddenly in the ashes I'll see a huge glowing red M it'l ruin the expirience, however an half burned down resturant with flickering defective neon M can actually add to the realism of the gameplay experience, or maybe another idea - a mission in a burnt down Rover(the british car firm) factory with some evil imps that drives a car and try to run over you.

[Eternalchaos]

Honestly.. when it comes to Ad.. I don't want em on my load screens because I want awesome Hellgate load screens...

now if it was in the corner like a burger king logo.. or perhaps a sponsered hellgate art... like Nike artists come up with their own art for Hellgate they could have maybe 3 or 4 types of artwork show up while loading and just as you hit 100% it says "brought to you by Nike" 3 sec delay then game time!!!...

Not only do we get awesome indepedant artwork then, but on updates they can add different art or stuff for load screens... would be very cool.. load in area 7.. and coola rtwork.. sign in next day OMG now its like.. some kind of awesome mockup weapon.. x.x Just no like Subway ad's where I'm playing hellgate and OMG a sub appears and its like "eat at subway"

You saw what happen in CS and how people reacted to having a subway ad like that in the middle of gameplay. Its a MASSIVE distraction to the game.

[Zeremi]

Anarchy Online makes ad to the game, like you walk in town/city/whatever and there are... ads... I think it would be better than monthly fees.

No popups or loading screens... Just in-game ads...

[iB@32]

Oh so that is the reason I keep getting :
"Free Anarchy Online with all add ons today!" spam in my mailbox all the time.
I was wondering how did they make money.

Anyway Eternalchaos, I'm preety sure that gamers wont get upset from a well made/placed ad, like my examples.

I heared in another thread that you are Jew , so if you know hebrew you might want to read this article about in game advetisments :
http://www.gamer.co.il/gamer2/php/doc.php?id=95382

[Eternalchaos]

0.o... I'm jewish yes but I can't read hebrew like that LOL... Been ages since I actaully read the stuff :( I should of kept up with it but sadly I just stink at learning language.. I'm better at mathand science.

In game ad's though are good if done right. with CS:S it was done really bad because it affected gameplay. A few good examples of ad's in games I saw on xplay though. One was a snowboarding game where even though the ad's were in your face you didn't see them because you were going so fast or trying not to crash.. OR :) crash into em and watch the rag doll action lol.. Come to think of it :) would be pretty cool to shoot a Viagra Display ad off a rooftop and crush zombies with it ^_^

[pdvinenz]

Games with monthly fee also give profit don't forget that, actually a lot of games do nowadays. If you get tired sell your stuff, usually people around wanting it.

Example? Sure

WoW CE: $60
+ Gamecards: 5x $25
---------
= $185

Sold Account: about $500

Profit: $315

And in my opinion I made $500, because paying for the game was well worth it, and it made one of my best gaming experiences.

[Darcphnx]

Here's my two cents: I currently play WoW sharing a friend's account. I'm one of those players that fell into the void after D2X died. After D2X I ventured into UT2K4, but soon after got bored. Then GW came out and in three months I made three lvl 20 chars with all the best items. Now it sits on my PC. Then I tried Oblivion, and put it down after lvl 5, grinding without the MMO isn't fun. Between the gaps, I've resorted to text online games...

Until now I've been anticipating UT2K7, but then I saw HG:L. I thought to myself: "Holy Jesus!!" I can tell you that P2P (Pay to play) will make or break my decision to pre-order this or buy it... One reason is because I'm just starting out on my own so paying $15 isn't really an option with Rent and Bills and only a part-time job.

IMO FSS Should do a few things in order to avoid P2P but keep the game funded:
1: Hidden Ads. I'm sure we've all played a game and seen a Burger King symbol in the game. Placing advertisements like this, carefully, would keep the game funded forever since 1,000's of people will see the ads, and if they did it correctly, wouldn't hinder the player experiance.

2: Special items: Gunbound does this decently, where there are items you can only get by paying for them. HG:L and FSS should think of this, but make it so they are not buy only. They should make it so if you want to get awesome items fast, you can buy them, but if you are willing to grind and wait, you can still obtain them via quests or other means.

3: Banner Ads: Like D2X and Bnet, have a general chat before going into the multiplayer missions that has a banner ad. Or place it somewhere where all players can see the rotating banner, but it will not hinder gameplay.

4: Upgrades: Like GW they could plan to fund themselves entirely off expansions. Though, this would more then likely yield much less prophet then the methods mentioned above.

On a last note: FSS Might want to think about constantly adding side-quests into the MP realm. This is what keeps me playing games like FFVII, there are so many side-quests that it keeps you busy for a few months. Imagine a game that's consistantly updating these... In anycase HG:L looks awesome.

[mr(JC)]

Lets put it this way, ive looked into many games that look fun and great to play and as soon as i read monthly fee required, i refused to look at that game ever again. I believe paying monthly is retarded, of course this is my opinion. yes, i can see how it makes sence and all but its really ust comes from businesses and there greed for all that money.

*This is my opinion plz dont hate me lol* :p

[DepthCharge]

If I'm going to pay a monthly fee, I better be able to take my Templar offline with all the equipment I've found during online play and use him in any single player mode when I'm offline.

[Syl]

who would bother to play online (with monthly fee) if you can play with your friend trough lan (vpn).

[Eternalchaos]

If I'm going to pay a monthly fee, I better be able to take my Templar offline with all the equipment I've found during online play and use him in any single player mode when I'm offline.


agreed.. if there is a SP mode.. and a MP mode you have to pay to play there should be a offline mode. Kinda could work like ths..

SP can not be transposed to MP

MP characters created in MP can be "copied" into a SP slot... copied characters can play offline now and be moved with all equipment and stuff you originally had. That character though can no longer be recopied back to MP... (avoids cheating)

[RiF]

who would bother to play online (with monthly fee) if you can play with your friend trough lan (vpn).

guilds who are a multi guild clan who live throught north america...

and i use to be against montly fees until i was told to think of it like this prolly 15$ a month like every other game hehe.......how many hours would u play hellgate online...if its more then 2 hrs u cant go to more then 1 movie for that much lol and thats only 1 night of entertainment :) plus how much can u do at 3am? haha

[Akuyazi]

thats a good idea but id still rather like to pay nothing :)

[mr(JC)]

hey dont say its a good idea, if they see people like it they may change there minds even more. :p

[northrop]

If I'm going to pay a monthly fee, I better be able to take my Templar offline with all the equipment I've found during online play and use him in any single player mode when I'm offline.
Ha! I proposed the exact same idea last year.

[Majpain]

Not to thrilled :(

[Waabulo]

I am one that typically avoids p2p games. Admittedly, I am not a multiplayer person to begin with due to work and family schedules. I am able to get some time here and there, not enough or regular for mp play to make it worth my while to pay for WoW or EQ or others.

Flagship can do whatever they want with p2p for HGL, but I think that the community is against it.

However, I am reminded of xbox and their xbox live. You can play a game in single player mode if you buy the game (rent or borrow or whatever). To play mp with xbox, you have to currently pay for xbox live.

HGL has been billed from the begginning as having a full single player mode with implication of multiple difficulty levels i.e. D2 normal, nightmare and hell. Bill Roper and others at FSS know the success of battle.net and that this has helped sell more units of Blizzard's various titles. I would find it a little odd that FSS would wanted to charge a monthly fee for mp action, but again considering xbox with xbox live, this is a viable option. However, if they do this, FSS may be creating a diparity with single player and multiplayer.

A monthly charge generally implies that mp will be constantly updated/upgraded. Will single player also be patched accordingly? Some changes in multiplayer may not need to be transposed onto single player, but how do you account for major changes in the game besides doing an expansion or massive patch? If FSS improves the game for multiplayer and adds content, i.e. missions, items, monsters,etc... I as a player want those in single player. I realize that this may not happen 100% percent of the time, i.e. some items only available in D2X online vs. offline.

[Darcphnx]

All of the battle.net games got patchs to debug the game and make for a better playing experiance. They even added new items for D2X - What they didn't get was consistantly changing quests for you to do. I think the decision for pay to play will come down to: are there new things to do all the time? If they decide to keep adding content for players to discover and do, then they will need fnds to pay the people who add it. What they could do to avoid it though is make it something that happens once in awhile. For example: Someone discovers a new quest, and it takes a month to do. By the time they're done, there's a new one to discover.

[Shayera]

I'd not play the game online if i had to pay a monthly fee for it. I only have the time to play online for around 3 or 4 days a month so i'd consider it a waste of money...

If they make addons i'll buy them, as long as they are not via internet! Bioware sells some modules internet-only and guess what - i havn't bought a single one. I don't have a creditcard, and i'm certainly not willing to get one just to buy online once or twice a year.

If they want to get extra money for content its OK for me, as long as i can buy the stuff in a store ;)

[mr(JC)]

I'd not play the game online if i had to pay a monthly fee for it. I only have the time to play online for around 3 or 4 days a month so i'd consider it a waste of money...

If they make addons i'll buy them, as long as they are not via internet! Bioware sells some modules internet-only and guess what - i havn't bought a single one. I don't have a creditcard, and i'm certainly not willing to get one just to buy online once or twice a year.

If they want to get extra money for content its OK for me, as long as i can buy the stuff in a store ;)

This is pretty much exactly how i feel, and usually monthly paying games are constantly updated non-stop, i just cant see that happening for hellgate: london. In the case they do add a monthly fee, im going to be extremely disapointed because it will rule me out of the game and many others. The main reason of disapointment is because ive waited long for a game such as this to finally come out, Online, Guns, Swords and the best part Zombies ;). Not to mention its an RPG this game is like a dream come true to me, and adding a monthly fee would just completly ruin everything. However i am willing to buy Exspansion games for it as they come out, and if necasery i will buy Via-internet, although id prefer not to.

[Nil]

If they want to get extra money for content its OK for me, as long as i can buy the stuff in a store ;)

'tis just silly, my friend. If they sell it in stores, it will cost them much more (Packaging, shipping, publisher fees, etc).

If they make it download-only, then the devs get to keep all of the money, avoid some expenses and make it cheaper.

If you make it available both places, common practice is to make them cost roughly the same so that they don't have to listen to everyone complain about how folks at the store have to pay more ("I had to pay $30 and the guy online just pays $15! I don't care that it cost you more than $15 more to make it available in stores - I want it my way and only my way!")

As far as monthly fees go, I won't buy it if it has them. If I'm going to pay for a game that I don't have time to play anyway, I'll play Vanguard. I was hoping this would be my next game after Oblivion, though as one person stated, it'll probably get released in 2009, and as awesome as Oblivion is, I'm not thinking it will last 3 more years.

[Shayera]

'tis just silly, my friend. If they sell it in stores, it will cost them much more (Packaging, shipping, publisher fees, etc).

Why is that silly? I'll have the CD/DVD at home, can install/reinstall whenever i like, and no need to connect to the net or get a creditcard. The important thing for me is the availability - if that costs me (in the end it will be me who pays the difference) a bit more so be it ;)

[Azurewrath]

I'm with mr(JC). If the online part requires me to pay a monthly fee, then I'm just going to have to live without playing HG online. If by some miracle, my parents will actually fund this innocent little pleasure, I will still voice my outrage in between cries of "Who's your daddy !".

[JELL]

I was thinking about all that hard work to give replayability to the game, with all the random stuff. Hellgate doesn´t need too much new contents to be playable for a long time. At last that´s what you see with Diablo. Maybe little new things now and there and a big change from time to time. Off course, fees are not only to pay new content but to have a stable and great online enviroment.

If there is a fee, It can be a very little one... or more than one expansion. Personaly don´t like too much WOW because there is so many death time, and some stupid quests that are only there to keep you online. Is like working!, and paying for it!

Long story short... personally I woudn´t like a monthly fee, but can survive a little one if I have a really enjoyable online world to play.

[Reap3r]

It's an SP game aswell as a multiplayer so a monthly fee for MP would be a bad idea, however if it's an issue of funding for Flagship I would prefer to pay extra for the game.

I would pay a monthly fee though If that is what is required, I just dont like the idea of one.

[Eternalchaos]

Yeah Nil.. dude you know how little it costs to produce a game.. the game is what you are paying for.. not the publishing.. besides.. its a huge mistake to have online only content.. look at GW

utoh i gotta reformat or reinstall the game.. time to DL 300MB worth of updates again.. you got 56k you are screwed.. and at the same time you can't play the game without updating so i ts a double edged sword.. why unless its a minor patch.. a major update (400mb or more of stuff) should be just redistrubuted, or at least all previous updates included in the next expansion so its not.. install game A .. download all updates.. install expansion.. download all updates.. etc

[Nil]

Yeah Nil.. dude you know how little it costs to produce a game.. the game is what you are paying for.. not the publishing.. besides.. its a huge mistake to have online only content.. look at GW

utoh i gotta reformat or reinstall the game.. time to DL 300MB worth of updates again.. you got 56k you are screwed.. and at the same time you can't play the game without updating so i ts a double edged sword.. why unless its a minor patch.. a major update (400mb or more of stuff) should be just redistrubuted, or at least all previous updates included in the next expansion so its not.. install game A .. download all updates.. install expansion.. download all updates.. etc

Sorry, friend, but it is you who apparently doesn't know what kind of cut the publisher takes from a game. It's usually half the box price or more.

As far as downloading it all again - I would suggest that you learn how to back things up. It's a very useful little tool that prevents this sort of thing.

Also, the person I replied to mentioned Biowares downloads, which were not for major content updates - they were just for quests. The truly major content updates were for expansions, which are a different subject than what we were talking about.

[mr(JC)]

Yeah Nil.. dude you know how little it costs to produce a game.. the game is what you are paying for.. not the publishing.. besides.. its a huge mistake to have online only content.. look at GW

utoh i gotta reformat or reinstall the game.. time to DL 300MB worth of updates again.. you got 56k you are screwed.. and at the same time you can't play the game without updating so i ts a double edged sword.. why unless its a minor patch.. a major update (400mb or more of stuff) should be just redistrubuted, or at least all previous updates included in the next expansion so its not.. install game A .. download all updates.. install expansion.. download all updates.. etc

this is what they should do right there, make the original game add a few updates not big ones, then later down the reoad create an exspansion to the game introducing tons of news things. this will allow them to make more oney when people go and and begin buy the new exspansion.

[Eternalchaos]

Sorry, friend, but it is you who apparently doesn't know what kind of cut the publisher takes from a game. It's usually half the box price or more.

As far as downloading it all again - I would suggest that you learn how to back things up. It's a very useful little tool that prevents this sort of thing.

Also, the person I replied to mentioned Biowares downloads, which were not for major content updates - they were just for quests. The truly major content updates were for expansions, which are a different subject than what we were talking about.


err.. Nil.. you can't back up GW updates dude.. lol.. GW has like 3 files on your PC thats it.. allt he updates get streamed down to your account on the server based off your installer file.. even if you backed up the GW folder.. and registry then format and put it back on the PC>. you'll be required to Redownload everything..

and yeah the publisher takes half the costs.. but I'm talking about cost to actually publish... Blizzard publishes their own games so they don't gotta pay a companylike vivendi to just run a damn CD burner 24/7 for em.. if you think about it.. publishers just burn the data onto disks.. put em in a box and that is it.. why they demand so much is beyond me.. it takes 5 minutes to burn data to a disk... but could take 5 years to have made all that data to work.. its a shame as you said.. publishers demand so much to simply burn CD's and DVD's(not to mention put starforce on disks LOL )

[Nil]

err.. Nil.. you can't back up GW updates dude.. lol.. GW has like 3 files on your PC thats it.. allt he updates get streamed down to your account on the server based off your installer file.. even if you backed up the GW folder.. and registry then format and put it back on the PC>. you'll be required to Redownload everything..

and yeah the publisher takes half the costs.. but I'm talking about cost to actually publish... Blizzard publishes their own games so they don't gotta pay a companylike vivendi to just run a damn CD burner 24/7 for em.. if you think about it.. publishers just burn the data onto disks.. put em in a box and that is it.. why they demand so much is beyond me.. it takes 5 minutes to burn data to a disk... but could take 5 years to have made all that data to work.. its a shame as you said.. publishers demand so much to simply burn CD's and DVD's(not to mention put starforce on disks LOL )

Okay, I'll give you a point as I really can't speak about GW as as I've never played it past one of those free weekends. I was discussing Bioware's model. You also get a bonus point for not responding angrily to my jerky comment.

And it is a shame, but you need to consider that the publisher is also the company that's really taking the risk. In many cases (like this one), the publisher is the one who gives the developer the money to get going, so since the publisher takes the risk, they deserve some reward (not that the devs don't take risks, but that's mostly with their reputations). Also the publisher is using distribution channels they've negotiated to get the game on the shelves. It requires alot of man-hours and no small amount of money to keep those things going, and that accounts for alot as well.

I agree that the giant chunks that publishers take are a excessive, but they really do more than just burn DVDs.

Besides, someone's got to put that awesome Starforce copy protection on those disks. ;) I'd run out of coasters without it.

[Eternalchaos]

Good point.. forgot you cant exactly make a game without the publisher LOL.. unless you dont plan to distribute it.. Still.. I think many publishers need to rethink their method of publishing.. some just really shouldn't publisher games.. while others do such a good job you always want to buy the game just because that publisher did it.. like BioWare.. omg are they amazing :) Blizzard, Bioware.. Ubisoft(even though they used starforce they actually removed it upon uninstalling their games)..

I'm also glad the company that published Bet on Soldier went bankrupt. OMG was that a botch.. perhaps the worst way to implement starforce (almost a 2 min delay before the game would boot up.. .. aka.. 2min frozenpc).. your CD key came attatched to the plastic packing and was not inside the case so all you had to do was open a box and you got a key.. it got botched in so many ways I almost cried

[Sol Invictus]

Since when did JoWood go bankrupt?

[Ademaro]

I am really convinced that Hellgate: London's publishers are awesome. If they're gonna give FSS money to say, yah we'll be done when were done... They must have some true confidene that this game is going to kick ass!! Let alone give them plenty more money then what they give in, I definately trust that this game is going to be amazing :)

[Eternalchaos]

LOL namco rules as a publisher :) and bet on soldier... eerrr that wasn't JoWood... Bet On Soldier was published by Digital Jesters

[Sophitia]

My personal opinion is: Free closed multiplayer and pay montly fee for ladder access.

[Holy-One]

Well from all the new interviews they have not said out right that it is ptp. But they all say one thing that there will be constaly updating game play. To me this means yah this game will be ptp and now the question is how much. If it is ptp i may just stop following this game all together its just going to fall into the sea of all other mmo's. I dont know it does look pertty cool but i hate the feeling oo i gota get on today becuse i payed 15 bucks and i have not played once this mounth... Really i may just buy it for the singal player as a time killer.

[Zeremi]

... Im crying... Please, im begging, no ptp!!!

[thanatopsis]

I will say it again, FSS probably doesnt know if the multiplayer end will need a monthly fee they will need to determin all the online features they will have in game. they have budgeted for X amount of servers and bandwith. But if they find that because of intrest they cant suport all the users then they will have to buy more servers and this may not be coverd in the profits that they make off of sales of the game. along with this if they budgeted and expected the intrest that they did then may not need to to charge a monthly fee.

simply put they have not figured out if it will be pay to play because it is not close enough to completion for them to know.

[Holy-One]

I cry to i really love this game but this will be the frist game ever to have constaly updating infomation and not charge for it (as i know). I just dont know... i may pay the 15bucks a mounth may not. I know the friends I would have played with will be cut down 90%. I think the reason if it is ptp that they are holding off on telling us is that just like these fourms they hope you fall in love with the game track it and not care about the mouthly fee. Me right off the bat they say mouthly fee i would have not even looked at the game, But i say makers of d2 and i was like oo they make free online action rpg game lets take a look. Who know maybe the game will have no fee but from what i see its looking down.

[Holy-One]

I will say it again, FSS probably doesnt know if the multiplayer end will need a monthly fee they will need to determin all the online features they will have in game. they have budgeted for X amount of servers and bandwith. But if they find that because of intrest they cant suport all the users then they will have to buy more servers and this may not be coverd in the profits that they make off of sales of the game. along with this if they budgeted and expected the intrest that they did then may not need to to charge a monthly fee.

simply put they have not figured out if it will be pay to play because it is not close enough to completion for them to know.

name 2 games that are mmo that constantly update and give you new quest and more weponds that keep you wanting to play more in the past 3 years. If you name 2 game like that then maybe i did just jump the gun.

[Zeremi]

Or then they wanna wait until everyone is in chaos then say there is no MF and everyone is double happy then before the chaos...

If your up there, please save us, Ivan!

[thanatopsis]

name 2 games that are mmo that constantly update and give you new quest and more weponds that keep you wanting to play more in the past 3 years. If you name 2 game like that then maybe i did just jump the gun.
I said Wait till they say something definitive. We dont know their buisness model as such they may have planded for this level of suport.

but if you really want to Anarchy online, and Rose online. then there is also guildwars which updates not as regulrly as it used to but still does update.

you still need to remember the single player aspect that the game is going to have so this still isnt like any mmo out there now or ever that I know of.

[Eternalchaos]

Anarcyonline, rose online, guild wars, silk road, knight online, martial heroes.. :) i can keep going if you want mwahaha..

all games provide updates on a weekly basis.. but not MASSIVE updates like overnight they add hundreds of quests.. usually changes are made graduatlly like in GW>. once every few months now you'll see a huge update... the other games are more along the lines of little fixes that add up to a big change later on

[Holy-One]

Well in my option I SMELL THE PTP coming... I hope i am wrong but the way i see it most games that are not ptp SCREAM AND YELL it like gw did. You can say they dont know there online motel but they do. From watching the viedos they have it set up just like guildwars, like they said. In that reguard becuse online is set up like guildwars, there is a reason it wont be ptp. I think you could go back and fouth on this all day but really it all comes down to a waiting game. I think they will annouce it at the begging of next year right before the game comes out if it is ptp. If its not they will say that asp to get more people watching the game. So the way i see it the longer they dont saying anything about ptp the more likly it to have one. (of cource that is all in my opinon and no fact in there).

[Zeremi]

Hmm... you guys are right! There is still hope!! Wohooo!!!

But they still should say does it got MF or not... Becaus... Someone does almost everything for this game but didnt know that there is MF so... Uh... You know.

[thanatopsis]

its still an mmo thats what you asked for, just because its not complicated or geared for the 13 and up audiance does not mean that they do not fufill the requirements you put before me.

[Zeremi]

Guildwars didnt ever update any major content besides the greens.
Well, I could say yes. They were doing lots of events like PvP worldcup
And free expansion.

[Syl]

They added the furnace in GW... They also have events like christmas and halloween.
Hellgate:London should hit the same market (RPG online with instanced missions)

edit:
ho, and before the tournament they added the observer mode.
they DO update.

[thanatopsis]

Again this is not the standard MMO IT also has a single player system. and a Online aspect just because they say it will be MMO like doesnt mean anything in and of itself. look at say Gunbound it fufills the MMO catagory along with its sword game version these are mmo's by clasification but not in reality. MMO is just the golden word to get peoples atention right now. and from this thread its working really well.

[Eternalchaos]

rose online and gw dont count.. Rose is made for 3 year olds and Guildwars didnt ever update any major content besides the greens.


lol.. try again.. since the game came out they added about 30 new quests... they added 3 entire areas.. sorrows furnace + 12 new quests.. SP underworld... and new arenas for PvP which i don't do... they added a skill training arena.. Observer mode.. faction to unlock skills.... and a few other features as well as skill balancing (otherwise known as taking the fun out of the game LOL!!!) all that came out "before" GW: Factions.. factions is more of an expansion.. how they call that stand alone is beyondme.. its super short... requires you to have TONS of experience and money to unlock skills and know whatyou are doing..

rose online yeah so its made for 3yr olds but you know what :) you asked for Free MMO's and I gave ya free MMO's.. i could also say Silk road sucks because you can never log in.. Martial heroes sucks because the community is so trade/camp hungry you are constantly lagging in towns... knight online the game is buggy and economy is so screwed up no one knows what to charge for stuff (server A a sword goes for 500,000 gold.. in server B its going for 50 million gold) :) free mmo is a free mmo..

on the issue of HG:L i can't see it being a real MMO.. if its instance based.. its not an MMO.. :) its a GW MMO LOL!! I perfer it instanced though.. I dont like going out into a world shared by hundreds of thousands and I just sit ther while 50,000 people farm the crap out of areas leaving nothing for me to attack...

[Holy-One]

Well in my option I SMELL THE PTP coming... I hope i am wrong but the way i see it most games that are not ptp SCREAM AND YELL it like gw did. You can say they dont know there online motel but they do. From watching the viedos they have it set up just like guildwars, like they said. In that reguard becuse online is set up like guildwars, there is a reason it wont be ptp. I think you could go back and fouth on this all day but really it all comes down to a waiting game. I think they will annouce it at the begging of next year right before the game comes out if it is ptp. If its not they will say that asp to get more people watching the game. So the way i see it the longer they dont saying anything about ptp the more likly it to have one. (of cource that is all in my opinon and no fact in there).

My edited post.. I regreated saying what i said as soon as i posted it lol. You make good points on the patches of guildwars. Anther good point you have made the all fee free games are bellow the bar of great. If hl is fee free It will break the mold of so many things I just dont see the game not being a nother d2. I mean in copys sold.

[Eternalchaos]

LOL! woops just noticed that :) damn you and your spoon hacks ^_^

you make a great point. we need a game that breaks the mold. GW tried but arena.net seriously screwed up. They are taking the fun out of the game by constant nerfing just about everything FUN to do. No more smite builds, no more 55 monking.. no more minion factory... (spirit spamming had to go though).. GW: Factions is a dissaster.. how can youc all it a full game.. my friend beat it in 4 days.. and they rush you through the game. The "grinding" in factions is basically because its a party of 8 vs a party of 60 NPC's and you can't let the level 20 npc die!! its so tedious and annoying


HG:L needs to have a fun online component that avoids creating elitist groups. There shouldn't be some competative way to tell people HAHA you suck because you havn't got a rank 6 emote yet! if someone don't want to MP compete, it shouldn't then affect partying... why there should be no rewards for competition play other than say faction within a class or items.. nothing "visual" should be given like super auras.. or capes, or special emotes..

[Syl]

GW is a PvP game.
HG:L will be a PvE game more than PvP (even if it will be possible to duel)

The only thing that we can compare about GW and HG is the online model, nothing else.

[iB@32]

GW also got a pretty long PvE campaign, it's just that its not very good.

[Syl]

and there was no replay value (well, at least before factions, where they introduced pve missions to conquer cities)

[rise]

Guild Wars, at heart, will always be a PvP game. It started that way in design, it stays that way after people come to their senses. :)

On a side note, Eternal, smiting is back! :D

[Eternalchaos]

Yeah i just heard :) the new skills let you create smite combos again LOL! give em 2 months to nerf it hehee.. I like the faction battle stuff, its fun and a good challenge.. I just with the pve was better. OMG factions has the worst voice acting and story yet. Why they gave voices to the characters is beyond me.. so far only Mhenlo was done right. Togo sounds like a perv :) and Shiro just don't sound right

[Tessien]

Half of the characters in that game sound like 60 year old men, in spite of the fact that they look 20.

Anways, back on topic: I wouldn't mind seeing Hellgate: London with a Guild Warsesqu business model. Hellgate: Dublin anyone?