Gold farming

[Beololol]

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2058&Itemid=2&limit=1&limitstart=0

Will people be able to "Gold farm" in HGL?

Gold Farming RUINED the economy in guildwars, the only grind that were was in guildwars was to get Fissure armor, and now any idiot can spend 20 bucks on eBay and instantly have it.

I don't like Gold Farmers, A gold farmer tried to sell me stuff in guild wars and I said "Fuck you and the cardboard box you floated in on."

Sadly, that only encouraged him.

Within 5 minutes I had gold farmers coming out my ass.

Ban gold farming!

ps: Don't hurt me if this has already been posted.

[LizardWhoSkiis]

That article may or may not have, but the topic I'm pretty sure has. Regardless, CAD had a nice rant about it ( http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/#1005 ) and excluding that I'm not going to let some sad turds get to me, it's pretty much how I feel about it, too.

[Dac the Hork]

umm Gold farming is part of every single RPG I believe. Killing monsters over and over to gain things is the driving force behind most games...

I really dont see botting as such a big problem with completely randomized levels but you never know.

Yes people farm items, it was part of D2 and D1.. I don't quite understand the problem with it in a game like HGL compared to GW.

If you want an economy in all honesty play Civ 4 or a plethora of games based on management. RPGs are about good gear, good combat systems, and character creation. Hopefully they had some elements of CORPG (competitive) to hellgate although this is not specifically PvP but rather a robust system that allows competition/challenges.

[Sol Invictus]

I think he's talking about people who work as farmers and ruin the economy by farming way too much. More so than average players who farm gear.

[Pernicious]

What gets me is that so many people want to take the easy way out and buy their "products" that actual companies are set up.

EDIT: Holy crap. I just looked at the IGE website. For a lvl 60 character in WoW, it's $300-$600! What kind of idiot is paying $300 for a WoW character.

[northrop]

Rich 10-year-olds who think those characters will make them almighty in the game world.

[Neutron Star]

And even though the developing companies say they're against it and put it in their EULA's and all, you only have to take a look at Ebay to see that it's not working at all. Guess you'll have to live with it.

[Oscarius]

It is very important that money has a value in a game. I don't like games where your only option is to find valuable items to barter with, it is very important to have alternatives for bartering, like money. But honestly, the problem isn’t the farmers (if they do it the legal way); it is the way the game economy works. Because if they choose to play the game through a lot of farming, trading and such affairs, then that is their business, not ours. Like I said the problem subsists in how the game economy works. The developers really have to think of some good ways to make the economy living. To be honest, a good example is World of Warcraft, even if it has some huge problems; you actually care about your money when playing it unlike some other games out there. But really to make a good economy in a game is to study how the economy works in the real world.

We all know that in the real world money value go up and down all the time. This isn’t the case in a traditional role playing game where the money value always goes down as time goes by. This is the biggest problem that I can think of and it really has to be figured out, because it can ruin Hellgate: London’s game economy as much as it has in many other games. One way to maybe solve this issue is to have some kind of bank in the game that will force the player to spend a specific amount of money depending on the income a character have. Let say that everyone live in the underground stations and pay taxes to live there. Then the rich people (the ones that have high income) will be paying more than the underdogs (the ones that have low income). This way you can control the game economy much easier, and might hinder some money exploits. For example you would not be able to make a profit to farm all day long, because the taxes would then be too high anyway. This forces the player to buy and trade stuff when they have some money, because they won’t want to spend taxes with all their money, right? Ultimately this will affect the living economy in the game, because the money value won’t go down in an eternity like it has in so many previous games. This money system will open up additional interesting possibilities. For example to having much more things to spend your money on in the world, like implanting some kind of gambling service like in Diablo 2, because this would now make much more sense, because you wouldn’t have infinite of money to buy everything. (…)

Well I know this isn’t a good system as of how it is explained now, I just touched the surface, but it would be nice to see something like this in the game, something that will work. At least I’ve shared an early view on something that can be improved upon, and I would like to hear some of your guys’ opinions on how to improve the game economy, either to flesh out my idea or to try and think of something else.

Peace!

[Dac the Hork]

Personally I never really mind people that pay money for items in games like WoW.

but really it is kind of annoying for games like Magic (ive never really played it), or Rakion, where to even play you have to pay lots of money.

It is where there is a boundary, say paying Money to play, versus paying money to get a little boost.

Now guessing from hellgate london, even with loads of money, if the requirements are correctly balanced twinking will not be so bad. Since each item takes up attribute points, equipping really nice items will be a little tougher then a simple requirement.

Also it really depends on the level status, if everyone is max level like in WoW and items are the only thing that differentiate how good you are, as long as you are alright at playing, then things like twinking and buying gold might affect it more.

Really I dont expect the type of endgame found in WoW to happen in a game like HGL.

The only way to really fix this type of thing would be Bind on Pickup type items, which are really kind of annoying if you want to trade etc. I would say that with the stat reqs, it wont be a huge problem....

[Beololol]

Lizard, thats where I got the link.

And yes Sol, people make a living off of farming.... Thats what I was talking about.

Imho farming non-stop ruins the economy, money floods the game so fast that the people who actually want a challenge end up playing for years before they get the best stuff, whereas you can open eBay, grab your parents credit card and bam you're jesus.

[major5013]

The thing i hate most about farming is... the people who think they are "elite" because they when online and bought a few of the best items in the game. Then they go around braggin how good they are. It really takes away from having to be good at a game to make a good character.

[LizardWhoSkiis]

Oscarius, I have to disagree with you there a bit.
There are some games that just have such a poorly implemented economy it can only make the whole game worse (Diablo II) and others that do a fair enough job it can actually be fun to play the economy a bit (WoW), but the economy should never be an extensive part of many genres such as RPGs and FPSs.

Economy goes good with RTS and especially TBS, and it even works as it's own marketable genre (enjoyable titles such as Gazillionaire). But when I'm trying to save mankind from slavery/domination/anniliation/what have you, I'd think of myself as being a little above taxes, and having more than paid my debt to society. If they still want taxes after I've been taking down a greater hell-spawn, I think I might just acccidentally let one slip by down their little road--same goes for someone who could be taking a few hell-spawn off my back, but is instead trying to make some quick cash from the apocalyse. Those are just a couple things that don't fly with me when I'm actually doing something.


Lizard, thats where I got the link.
Yeah, I had thought of that after after I posted. But no harm in sharing it with others that may have missed it.

[Beololol]

The big issue for me is that Guild Wars is slowly becoming D2, where money means NOTHING because people farm to much.

No one wants money anymore, all they want is Ectos and Shards.

Seen it in Diablo also, it was a challenge to GIVE away your money because everyone had max money.

[Pernicious]

but really it is kind of annoying for games like Magic (ive never really played it), or Rakion, where to even play you have to pay lots of money.
See normally that would get to me too, but the fact that even though you have to pay $300+ for a good deck, you can balance it out by winning things in return. Same situation with poker or any other gambling for that matter. Nobody is going to pay $10 bucks to play a hand of poker, but when you have the chance to win something in return it becomes worth it and more exhilarating.

But there is a difference with an MMO. You can pay these companies $300 for a good character, but what do you get in return. Satisfaction?

[Oscarius]

Well having taxes or not, something has to be done to make the economy living, and that could be through forcing the player to somehow pay money in different ways...

But really I don't know a good solution. I'll bring this up again when I actually know how the economy will work in hellgate. I have my thrust in the developers, they have good experience in this field so it shouldn't be a problem really...

Peace!

[Dynotaku]

...the people who think they are "elite" because they when online and bought a few of the best items in the game. Then they go around braggin how good they are. It really takes away from having to be good at a game to make a good character.

Coming from more of an FPS background, I always grin when I see people talk about being 'good' at RPGs. Yes, there is some skill involved in playing a RPG, knowing when to use certian spells, how to time cooldowns, etc, but the kind of skill it takes to be good at an RPG is a whisper of a shadow of what it takes to be good at an FPS.

On another site I frequent, someone posted a 20 minute video of nothing but crazy shots being pulled off in Quake 3, people hitting 11 rails in a row, or hitting airborn people 2-3 time with rockets or grenades. All the comments about the video were 'wow that's awesome' or otherwise recognizing the skill it takes to pull off shots like that. Then someone noted that when someone posts about how they have 5 lv 60s in WoW, we raz him about dying alone and otherwise disparage his social life (all in good fun you understand) and the guy didn't understand what the difference was, as it takes forever to get that good in Quake 3 as well. Well the bottom line is that in FPSs, Time Invested = Cultivation of Skill, in RPGs, all you get is a better character (gear, stats, etc) So going out to eBay and buying top end gear or a ready made ultimate character just saves time. You're shortchanging yourself the experience of playing that game, but honestly, someone who forged their character with their time instead of their pocketbook will only be marginally better at using their character, and even then, only at first, until the guy who bought their character gets up to speed. Even then, there's a good chance that the guy who bought his character will have the better character. In order to keep rare drops from becoming commonplace in a game where you can kill monsters by the truckload, they have to be made really rare. For instance, I've been playing Diablo 2 for... 3 years give or take, and I've never seen a Stone of Jordan or a Zod rune. I think that's dumb. I think there should be a reasonable chance of casual players finding extrodinary gear. Not that a casual player would know what to do with a Zod rune, but my point is that buying a decked out character can net you better equipment than you can realistically hope to get by spending months of your time playing.

But still, that practice should be canned by developers/publishers. After all, I've heard of instances where people trying to play WoW legitimately have been forced out of an area by farmers. That can't be good for the longevity of a game. Now, selling equipment or whole characters is a different matter. In WoW, in order to get a powerful character, people have to actually play the game, participate in instances, and if a bunch of farmers want to go do an instance, that isn't detrimental to anyone's gameplay experience. But getting rousted out of an area by 20 farmers because they want the mithril there... that sucks.

But I digress... Economy... right. The problem with combining RPG+Multiplayer is that there's always going to be people who, in a world of limitless resources, ie, monsters that burst with loot like pinatas and respawn every few minutes, there will be people who will farm insessently, because, as I've established, being 'good' at an RPG simply means having better gear than the next guy. Those people will gladly sell off all the gear that isn't top shelf, so basically, eveything in RPGs that isn't the 'best' or rarest of gear becomes instantly devalued.

There is no solution to that. People will always farm for loot, and there's no game mechanic that can prevent them from doing so. Binding gear does help control economy to some degree, but that detracts immensely from the game. One of the greatest things about the longevity of Diablo 2 is playing through the game, finding some sweet gear for a class you're not playing, then suddenly getting the urge to play that class. That's one of the reason I have lots of characters, but I've only actually beaten the game a handful of times. I guess I'm easily distracted by shiny things. Even Bind on Equip means that you can't hand down equipment if you want to try a different build. So it seems the only choice is to make decent gear exceedingly rare, which is no fun, or make equipment bind when you use it, which is no fun. OR - Just face the reality that the economies of multiplayer RPGs goes out of control within the first few months, and that it's simply a failing of the genre. That's something I can live with. I'm simply concerned about the fun factor of the game, not in studying macroeconimics when I'm playing.

One thing I would suggest however, is that drop rates should be adjusted for the single player/LAN games. Since there's no one but you playing, that means there won't be awesome hand me down gear from the obsessive farmers, so there should be better chances to get natural drops of rare equipment. Not a huge adjustment. Just make it possible to find that Stone of Jordan without having to play for 3 years.

[chakl]

I am not here to screw with the way you think a game should be played, But someone like me, who works full time and has only around an hour or so toplay video games on my average day. Why should I be limited in my game experience becuase i lack the time to play. I dont think its wrong to buy or sell uber equipment, Uber characters, or gold.
As you all said, You do short change yourself by doing this but how else is the average casual gamer supposed experience all the game has to offer without these little boosts and nudges in the right direction? It may be against the EULA or what not but is it really wrong? Gold farming and the like, while it may have an inverse affect on the game economy, will have its pluses as well.
You can have your Uber character that you invested months of time into, But i simply dont have those months of time to play, Does that mean i shouldnt experience the final act of the game?
yes I understand that i will eventually reach that point, But i dont want to be there eventually, I want to be there soon, I want to be able to play with my friends who are already doing the end game content.

[major5013]

Well I guess your right. I always had alot of time to play, so i would put alot of time into a character, and somebody else is still alot better then me because they spent money on it. I got kind of aggravated. But i suppose if you don't have the time to play, you will probably never get up to the high levels. But I still think you would feel more of an accomplishment when you build the character on your own, not getting stuff outside of the game.

[Pernicious]

someone who forged their character with their time instead of their pocketbook will only be marginally better at using their character,
I think you give too little credit to the skill needed to play an RPG. Let's say 5 lvl 60s decide to fight a boss and easily trounce it. The 5 lvl 60s that take on that boss next could be mauled. Why? Miscoordination, mistakes, and other things that require you to have experience to get down pat. Also skills like kiting that are very hard to master yet are very effective once mastered also is a demonstration of skil needed.
You can have your Uber character that you invested months of time into, But i simply dont have those months of time to play, Does that mean i shouldnt experience the final act of the game?
If your are like that then you should realize that you should not get a game like an MMO that requires a lot of time and money. That's why games like WoW or Guild Wars are considered hardcore gaming experiences. While games that you can play for an hour and get satisfaction like Madden are considered casual.

[Dac the Hork]

Gold is capped by what it can buy.

For instance if the best thing gold can buy is healing potions.. because you have the best gear. The most ammount of gold anyone wants is enough for healing potions. So all the rest is worthless.

If the best thing you can buy is pretty good, but most longterm players will have better. It will become worthless, although slower.

If the best thing you can buy is the best items... Gold becomes huge, and farming it takes the place of items. The only thing is, most people will try and accumulate gold. Also being able to buy the best items kinda sucks....

Something to equate this is Magic the Gathering. While I do not play the game it shares a lot with video game money/items.

Money in Magic is of course money in the real world. Magic cards are like leet gear, while the basic cards are the "healing potions"etc.

The way it works in magic is you still have a lot of trading even though everything is bought with gold (interaction). Why is because of the randomness, a Rouge (green) character can randomly get a really nice Warrior (red) item (card). The player can redeem it for gold (sell it) or trade it for a nice green item.

Also the best items are really expensive, but more based on luck.

I think a system where the best items can be got through gold, on a very random basis (gambling). A long with simple playing. Creates value in gold... aka gold can buy really good items.

now how do you deal with people getting all that leet crap and being done?

Simple variety, while that nice Flame Launcher Cannon is really hot crap... when you play a shulgoth fire demon, or a fire resistant character, its not the best anymore.

So to really be decked out you need a large variety of the leetest items, which takes a huge ammount of time.

So you can buy the best items through gambling, or from people who dont need them (get them on accident). Also even when you have all the best items, you still want a variety of them (eg, different uses AOE, Direct, DOT, Fire, cold).

So while you can have a very leet deck (setup) of items/cards. You still need variety to tackle all the problems. So there is no "end" to the value of gold. Aka you will still gamble for different leet weapon types to give your character more options.

So people who want the leetest equipment will take a very long time. but the grind isnt so bad since everyone can get a really leet item, they just wont have the same ability to switch between the best of the best items.

While gold will always be valuable, because the best items can be traded for with gambled leet items, or for very large sums of gold (in gamble value).

basically say in guildwars. All the nicest armor was pretty much the same.. looks or very slight bonuses. If for instance a certain sword you had was only 110% effective vrs one type of creature and 80% effective against another. You would want a backup weapon for some situations. If you wanted the best of the best you would have to get rare maxxed items in all slots for different situations.

(sorry for the lack of paragraphs, too much engineering :( )

[chakl]

If your are like that then you should realize that you should not get a game like an MMO that requires a lot of time and money. That's why games like WoW or Guild Wars are considered hardcore gaming experiences. While games that you can play for an hour and get satisfaction like Madden are considered casual.

So now i cant play the game i want to play. Thanks for limiting my experience even more. I think you fail at life.

[Dynotaku]

I think you give too little credit to the skill needed to play an RPG. Let's say 5 lvl 60s decide to fight a boss and easily trounce it. The 5 lvl 60s that take on that boss next could be mauled. Why? Miscoordination, mistakes, and other things that require you to have experience to get down pat. Also skills like kiting that are very hard to master yet are very effective once mastered also is a demonstration of skil needed.

Don't get me wrong, I was saying it does take some skill to be good at most RPGs, what I was saying was that if the skill it takes to be good at an RPG is this: http://www.mpc643.org/gallery/joshuatree/activities/adobe_small.jpg then the skill it takes to be good at FPSs is this: http://www.tei-c.org/Talks/2004/Wuerzburg/Whither/babel.jpg

My point was that in an FPS, you're always on a level playing field, every character has access to the same equipment, so skill is the only divide. Imagine in WoW, a 'super skilled' lv 50 character vs. a mediocre lv 60 character. The lv 50 will never ever ever win. Even a skilled lv 60 with 'noob 60 gear' vs. a mediocre 60 with 'farmed every instance and is dressed head to toe in purple and even has an orange' It'd still be almost impossible for the skilled player to win in that case. The toon makes the man in RPGs.

If the best thing you can buy is the best items... Gold becomes huge, and farming it takes the place of items. The only thing is, most people will try and accumulate gold. Also being able to buy the best items kinda sucks....

An alternative would be to make it so that even the best armor can still be modified, make it hellaciously expensive, but make it so you can add on another 25% cold resist or make it so that you can have an NPC tint the armor so that you can get a matching set. Just make it so that the best stuff has to be found, but that there's a reason to keep gold around to rice it up.

Everyone says that gold it worthless in D2, but that depends on what you're playing. If your character makes use of a merc, like the spear guy with an aura, or if the merc has some unique or runeword armor on that gives them a handy aura, then its in your interest to keep them alive. Problem is, rezing a lv 80 merc costs 40K gold. :P

[northrop]

[...]

So where would you place RTS in this mix?

The gear in RPG game is just as important as in FPS. The better gun you hold, the better your chances of survival/more kills. After that, FPS is all about the ability to aim with very little strategy or tactics what so ever… (note: I’m disregarding team vs team games and such, I’m strictly considering free far all games).

Any RTS requires more tactical thinking, and planning ahead.

[Dynotaku]

So where would you place RTS in this mix?

I've never been into the competitive RTS scene, as I can't brain that way, but it definitely takes pretty amazing skills to be consistently good at RTS games. The skillset is different though. Instead of having pixel perfect aim and lighting reflexes, you have to have serious mental focus. Reflexes help obviously, and both games require excellent but different kinds of strategy.

The gear in RPG game is just as important as in FPS.

Well, that depends on the game really. When I'm talking about FPSs (and I apologize if I'm coming off as an FPS snob here, which I'm sure I am) I mean games that are designed for 1 on 1 competition, like Quake 2/3 or the Unreal series. The weapons in say, Quake 3 are extremely well balanced, they're all equally useful, but the situation you're in dictates to some degree what gun you can use. A lot of people scoff at the shotgun but if you're 5-15 feet from your opponent, you can kill your opponent faster than that than you can with the rocket launcher, despite the perception that the rocket launcher is a more powerful weapon. All the weapons are equally deadly... well maybe not the grenade launcher so much, the skill comes from your ability to use them correctly, and just as importantly, keep your opponent from getting his hands on his favorite weapons is what makes the difference. In fact I've seen superior players using just the machine gun beat off opponents who were fully armed and armored.

But in a RPG, player skill doesn't make a lick of difference if you're using the Craptastic Butterknife with Fetid Cheesecloth armor, and your opponent is using the Ultradimensional Legendary Blade of World Sundering with JuggerAegis Neutroniumythril MechaPlate armor. If both players are similarly equipped in an RPG, then skill enters back into it. But like I said, Gear makes the Man in a RPG. FPSs are designed so that the players are always similarly equipped. Unless, of course, if one player can hog all the pickups and keep you from getting your hands on anything. But that's map control, that's part of the game.

[LizardWhoSkiis]

Don't get me wrong, I was saying it does take some skill to be good at most RPGs, what I was saying was that if the skill it takes to be good at an RPG is this: http://www.mpc643.org/gallery/joshuatree/activities/adobe_small.jpg then the skill it takes to be good at FPSs is this: http://www.tei-c.org/Talks/2004/Wuerzburg/Whither/babel.jpg
I don't think you could havve possible chosen a worse representation for the difference of RPG skill and FPS skill than construction and engineering...
You're right, in a proper RPG it doesn't really matter if you can click faster, and you only have to be precise enough to click the right dialog and spells. In terms of coordinations and dexterity, even the most pathetic case can still master an RPG. But dexterity and coordination are the skills you need for sports, typically not the stuff your hardcore RPGers are going to do.

To be good at an RPG isn't to have a high kill count or loot the best gear, or even to have a disgusting amount of maxed characters. To be good at an RPG is to have knowledge, to be able to learn and understand, and to apply quickly and appropriately. To measure that as you would a FPS is stupid, no offense.
True, in a case of the Craptastic Butterknife with Fetid Cheesecloth armor vs Ultradimensional Legendary Blade of World Sundering with JuggerAegis Neutroniumythril MechaPlate armor, the later will win (unless the gear names are entirely mocking), just as in the pistol vs the rail gun (Assuming they have a near equal chance to hit, as they would in an RPG).
But ignoring the gear (or even taking the poor gear vs elite gear and distributing it respectively) lets take the case of the advanced player who has appropriately placed his skills in an effective manner to slow the opponent's movement, reduces the opponent's fire resistance, and bombard the opponent with high powered fire spells vs the newbie who put a few points in traps which he throws about randomly, and a few crossed through out a number of seperate melee skills, but he excitedly charges out past his traps and constantly uses low level more damage at the cost of his own health skill. Now there's chance the advanced player would be laughing so hard he'd forget to even play, but really, he wouldn't even have to think to win that fight. That's why most people have problems playing against AI.

So when you show me a large building and say it's FPS skill, I'll happily point out that an FPS player would be the only one stupid enough to take advantage of the size and play on the top of it. ;)
(Don't get me wrong, I play FPSs a good bit, but there a reason I'm the sniper and tactical director when needed and everyone else runs around with shotguns a-blazing.)

[Dac the Hork]

I dont know how this became an argument of FPS vrs RPG. In all seriousness skill in one usually means skill in another. A skilled, capable player is a skilled capable player in anything.

For instance 4 ex BE members, all of whom including lulu played Tribes seriously, (the FPS) . Are really competitive in the PvP of GW (Free trip to tapei, $$$). Skill is skill, sort of like athleticism. Now some people may be better at one type of game over another, but overall most games require the same set of skills even if they seem very different. For instance messing around in starcraft or Magic the gathering will help your skill a lot in GW. Also really good players at CS:S do good in GW too. It mostly depends on how serious you take the game.

[major5013]

Another thing i noticed too, for most people i've seen at least, is if your just good at games, and you play alot, normally you will be good or at least decent in most other games. And it all depends on the learning curve of the game too, some may take a little more time to pick up, but any good gamer usually can get good enough to be considered "skilled". I play both rpg and fps. I'm good at both. Obviously there will always be players that are extra skilled at a certain game, they just practice alot on that one game, and don't venture out to playing different games to much.

[LizardWhoSkiis]

I dont know how this became an argument of FPS vrs RPG. In all seriousness skill in one usually means skill in another. A skilled, capable player is a skilled capable player in anything.
My argument had nothing to do with genre skill, except in example. It was all about the use of buildings to represent skill. :p
But, from what I've seen, you're not quite right. While many people who played one type are able to pick up on another a bit quicker, or at least start off a little better, there is a serious drop in the skill level as one picks up a new genre. For many people they are even unable to work between different games within the same genre. Some even have difficulties with different features of the same game (I couldn't count how many people I know that can build an awesome empire in Rome: Total War, but simply can not play the battles.)
Generally I've seen people are able to work well with 4 or 5 different game types, and anything else they may be able to manage, but are quickly crushed by more attuned gamers.
For instance, I'm revered among friends for playing RTS, I'm screwing around with arbitrary builds while my friends try to muster up something useful in RPGs, and I'm the aspiration of the group when it comes to sniping in FPS, but I can't play a TBS to save my life. Going back to R:TW, I barely managed finished the campaign in the alloted time, but I never lost a battle in the entire duration (short of naval which weren't playable).

But to make an attempt to relate any of this back to the topic at hand...
My point really, is that real skill at a game can never be purchased, so even in an RPG a good player generally deserves his props and learned what it took.

[northrop]

Another thing i noticed too, for most people i've seen at least, is if your just good at games, and you play alot, normally you will be good or at least decent in most other games. And it all depends on the learning curve of the game too, some may take a little more time to pick up, but any good gamer usually can get good enough to be considered "skilled". I play both rpg and fps. I'm good at both. Obviously there will always be players that are extra skilled at a certain game, they just practice alot on that one game, and don't venture out to playing different games to much.

Yes and no, really. From my personal experience, I was always good with RTS games starting from Colonization all the way through C&C’s, WC’s, SC, W40K, Commandos… yet I could NEVER figure out how to play Settlers! That game just annoyed the hell out of me.

Same with FIFA games, I am an okay player, and I especially enjoyed the ’98 and 2000, but was never good enough to compete online, though I won few games against my friends.

As far as FPS… I suck in all of them. But I did enjoy playing Quake with my friend on a closed server.

[Killmojo]

The way i see it, there is a different skill set required for different genres of games. Its much like comparing chess to football, one requires physical agility and strength, while the other is entirely mental. RTS games require more mental agility, timing, and control. FPS games, while many do require tactics, the skill is in being able to put a bullet through the opposition's head before he/she does likewise to you. An RPG requires an entirely different skill set. To be successful (without cheating) the player needs good planning, organisation, some inspiration and, in a battle, a huge amount of observation. These skills can not be bought. Items can, and items are a core element to any RPG, and this is a problem. The nature of the RPG genre allows for gold farming, cheating, duping, ebaying and anything else that might ruin the game to eventually take place and we must deal with that. What must be said, however, is that in a fight between two equally equipped characters, one an experienced player and the other an ebayer, the more skilled player will win.

[Dynotaku]

Well my point was that it takes more skill to be good at an FPS than it does to be good at an RPG, since FPSs traditionally always put players on a level playing field, skill is the only divide.

In an RPG, all other things being equal, sure skill is the deciding factor usually, but even then, the less skilled player can get better 'rolls' and get tons of crits, etc.

That's why I used the example of the buildings. There's a skill cap for RPGs, because crits and saves and other factors beyond the players control affect the outcome of games. I'm not saying there's not an 'elite' level of RPG player for any given game, certianly there's a point at which you're doing more than trying to out-damage someone, where you're predicting someone's actions and reactions and controling the other player becomes a factor. But in an RPG, if you have a 95 skill to hit and your opponent has a 95 dodge skill (or whatever) player skill has nothing to do with whether or not you hit. It's arbitrarily determined by the computer, which is why I say that there's a point at which being a million billion times better than your opponent ceases to matter.

But in FPSs, the only cap is the limit of human reflexes and strategic ability. For example, I'd consider myself a fairly mediocre player. I can usually beat anyone I meet at LAN parties, and when I'm playing FFAs online I'm usually in the top 3 on the scoreboard, but when I go to Quakecon etc, there are guys there that can shut me out. The scary thing is that when these guys that can whoop me play the pros, they get shut out.

But relating back to the point of the original thread, gold farming exists because you can buy power in RPGs. The gear makes the man.

I'd love it if someone made a skill based FPS that had RPG like gear though, so that you can take on increasingly tough monsters as you progress through a storyline. HG:L isn't going to be wholly skill based, as FSS keeps insisting you don't have to be a crack shot to play HG:L, but it's the closest thing yet.

[chakl]

In an RPG, all other things being equal, sure skill is the deciding factor usually, but even then, the less skilled player can get better 'rolls' and get tons of crits, etc.
Not entirely true, A person who knows how to play an "true" rpg properly can equip themselves "properly" the chance to get crits more often, or more damage when using certain spells. But this skill can be acquired by anyone who knows how to read.

I'm not saying there's not an 'elite' level of RPG player for any given game, certianly there's a point at which you're doing more than trying to out-damage someone, where you're predicting someone's actions and reactions and controling the other player becomes a factor. But in an RPG, if you have a 95 skill to hit and your opponent has a 95 dodge skill (or whatever) player skill has nothing to do with whether or not you hit. It's arbitrarily determined by the computer, which is why I say that there's a point at which being a million billion times better than your opponent ceases to matter.
havent you ever heard of crowd control or traps? by playing your abilities corectly, you limit what a person is able to do the same way as in an FPS. RPGs are more of a chess game in this sense.

But in FPSs, the only cap is the limit of human reflexes and strategic ability. For example, I'd consider myself a fairly mediocre player. I can usually beat anyone I meet at LAN parties, and when I'm playing FFAs online I'm usually in the top 3 on the scoreboard, but when I go to Quakecon etc, there are guys there that can shut me out. The scary thing is that when these guys that can whoop me play the pros, they get shut out.
FPS you are on a constant equel playing field unless someone uses their strategy to control the map or what not.

But relating back to the point of the original thread, gold farming exists because you can buy power in RPGs. The gear makes the man.

I'd love it if someone made a skill based FPS that had RPG like gear though, so that you can take on increasingly tough monsters as you progress through a storyline. HG:L isn't going to be wholly skill based, as FSS keeps insisting you don't have to be a crack shot to play HG:L, but it's the closest thing yet.
I cant stress how many people think this and are completely wrong. What good is your godly equipment if you dont kno basic math. All that godly equipment you bought could have different properties, making you a jack of all trades, Or you can properly do the math and equip yourself with items which will actually make your character better in what he specializes in.
I cant stress the ammount of times ive seen noobs who have the "best items in the game" and couldnt do anything with thier characters.

in short, its a different type of skill set then fps. Certain rpgs, depending on how they are made, can make you right (in terms that player skill really has nothing to do with it and rolls matter that much more), particularly those that lack character customization.

A perfect example I can use would be WOW. In wow there is one class in particular, if you properly equip it can 1 hit kill anything and everything in the game (in terms fo PVP) and another class if properly equiped can be leveled up to the max level within 4 days. Now you may think this doesnt take skill, but to actually figure what has to be done in order to achieve this is what makes things interesting and difficult. No noobies can possibly do it.

[Dynotaku]

one class in particular, if you properly equip it can 1 hit kill anything [...] and another class if properly equiped can be leveled up to the max level within 4 days.

Doesn't sound like skill to me.

The point of my original post was just my verbose segue to the idea that high skill can't make up for poor equipment/character stats in an RPG, which is why gold farming/character + equipment sales flourishes in the genre.

But the bottom line is that I think that it takes more skill to be a good FPS player than it does it does to be a good RPG player, and clearly you don't agree, and we're not going to convince each other otherwise so there's not much point in debating it.

I cant stress the ammount of times ive seen noobs who have the "best items in the game" and couldnt do anything with thier characters.

That sounds like a case of someone missing chromosomes though.

[chakl]

I was getting at the fact that The items are available to everyone at the beginning and people still arent able to pull "it" off reguardless becuase they feel they are doing whatever they are doing "the right way" when its just innefecient.

[Klael]

Its just different sets of skills. For example, you can perform an astronomical number of APM in RTSs but you'll lose horribly in a game of chess.

You guys are kinda comparing between reflex power or brain power. Reflex is explanatory. For brain, you have to know which equipment complement each other, where/how to obtain them, how to utilise them properly and what to do at each stage of level etc. For some, its just a matter of reading up and figuring out for yourself. But some thickheaded ones will never get it.

[Dac the Hork]

okay on topic for a second :)

How does gold farming ruin an economy? It creates deflation because the more and more gold you have the less each gold is worth, or items are worth. Flooding the market with people with lots of gold, increases the value of everything in the secondary market so normal players can't buy nice items.

Also with respect to items, flooding the market with items make them worth less.

So farming gold = gold is worth less
farming items = items are worth less

Invariably gold is always valued at what it can buy. So take the best possible item you can buy and items you need (health potions) and you get a rough value of gold. If gold is inherently worthless, aka after you get to a certain point in terms of items, they only are worth the need to buy health potions etc.


So how does gold farming factor in. It is basically mostly a way to get lots of gold, in WoWs case to spend on important items such as mount, potions, leet loot, etc.

What it does on a real scale is slowly increase the value of items, and at the same time if sold for real money, allows noobs to get nice stuff (advantage). What most people complain about is the advantage gold can give you, in a good system having a lot of gold SHOULD get you a better character. Just like in real life having a lot of money helps in a lot of ways (education, home, food, health).

So these people who want "real economies" based on gold, make no sense to me. Because if gold is worth a lot, then the most worthwhile characters will have a lot of gold (gold farming, ebay). The only way this could work is if things deteriorated, and basically a copy of real life, aka nicer and nicer items are released etc. Wars destroy lots of things etc.. Things become outdated. The reason why things must deteriorate is otherwise once you have all the leet items, there is now no need for gold, just enough for healing potions etc.

No one really wants that and Im pretty sure HGL will not have any of that. So basically Gold will infact be a little trinket in the game. Maybe worth some items from shops and a slight advantage. Because of level and attribute requirements the advantage won't be that great. So in the end you have a system where eventually gold becomes worthless. This is because part of the fun of HGL/diablo like games is finding leet items. Selling these leet items in vendors makes the system pretty lame as everyone will have them (or be able to easily pay a chinese person for them). The chance to find a really leet item also keeps people playing.

So basically there are some things they can do, make macros hard to do and make sure that there isnt some high gold density area that people will farm over and over at very effective rates. But in the end gold farming will not be of major concern imho. Items and item upgrades will be currency imho. Also twinking your own characters will hurt the economy more then any gold farming.


The best way imho to the economy is like Diablo 2, keep the gambling system etc (make it worthwhile), and all the best items are found in drops (actual playing), but keep the drop rate balanced so one area isnt farmed specifically. So you have some worth for gold to augment what you pick up and buying potions, which is a good use for gold. With the best items being found on drops. Finally gold should become pretty much not needed at the end of the game as you will have so much of it, but probably will still use it to gamble on lots of items.

[Beololol]

You cannot have JUST a gold farmer, thats dumb.

The prices of items would sky rocket, so someone would farm items to get mass uber rich.

The item farmer would even out the economy, so more gold farming.

Inflation.

More item farming.

Deflation.

It's just a never ending circle of retardedness

[Sol Invictus]

Gold farming (as a business) is bad for the game economy. If things go out of control, we'll probably set up our own 'exclusive trading list' of gamers and simply trade, buy and sell amongst ourselves without any external influences. That's how the "Legit" community in Diablo used to be. It was a lot more fun, too.