User purchased gold

[CmL]

After playing WoW, one thing I realized was that new servers had tremendous inflation due to the rarity of the items on the servers. An item with +agility could reach thousands of gold in th AH. A lot of people (new players) resorted to buying gold actually and the whole game lost its economic balance.

My question is - does this occur to other MMOs as well? Because I've only had the chance to play WoW so far due to my hectic work schedule.

And do you think this can effect HG:L in a way? They have the AH and some similarities in the economic system right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks in advance :)

[OnyxAbyss]

Yes, gold farming is a big issue. There are many companies/sites that farm in-game money and sell it for real money. It will most likely happen in HG:L as well. Best thing to do is to just not buy any. If the company/person makes no money, it is unlikely they will continue to do it.

[AngelicFaces]

Not so much a problem with the game, but more a problem with gamers these days who think buying gold for real money is okay. It is not okay.

Can it happen with HG:L? Not because of the reason you talked about, because it's servers will be different. WoW has a ton of servers because each one of them supports one huge world. HG:L won't have this, it will be more like D2. So there won't be new servers opening.

[CmL]

I just ran a quick search on gold farmers. Looks like they have power leveling services too lol. What can't people think of to make a quick buck these days? Gold farmers ruined my experience for WoW and by the looks of it, you guys have had a fair share of experiences too.


Can it happen with HG:L? Not because of the reason you talked about, because it's servers will be different. WoW has a ton of servers because each one of them supports one huge world. HG:L won't have this, it will be more like D2. So there won't be new servers opening.

What were the servers for D2 like? What's the difference from the WoW servers? Sorry I only played D2 offline. Presumably it's exactly like battle.net?

[quidproquodocta]

well since this game is going to be more like d2 than wow i don't see this being "as much of a problem"

*in wow to get teh uber lootz you need a group of good people

*in d2 u need some descent skill ok itamz and a touch of luck

[LFox]

While there was gold farming in wow it never ruined my experience hell i never even noticed it. Lineage 2 on the other hand every single guide you will EVER look at will say buy gold on ebay then buy the best gear then level.

HGL will have gold farmers but like wow it won't mean much. Oh yay they can pay money for items, they still have to level and not suck at actually playing the game. Also unlike a game like lineage 2 you can be sure FSS will be banning any gold farmers who are reported crushing their futile effort to make money.

[Silence]

Pretty much all popular MMO's or online games have some sort of group of farmers trying to profit off of in game goods. Inflation is a problem for newer players though normally, but also if you find a rare item you don't need you can capitalize on the inflation just as everyone else does.

Honestly the more farmers you had in WoW the easier it was to get stuff like minerals for your professions and things. After TBC launched, farmers weren't keeping up on the thorium extractions and it ended up costing way more than normal. Most of that inflation was caused by greedy normal players not farmers.

Buying gold really only hurts the people doing it. You may as well just buy a character with gear on him already. It's almost the same thing; you're pretty much skipping a crucial part of the game.

Farmers I don't think will be a big problem in the game though. Everything is instanced so we don't even have to deal with fighting with them for anything. Also boss running for items probably won't be the best way to do things in HG:L, so maybe it will force people to actually play the game more so than running bots.

[Pustulio]

If this game is at all like D2 (Like 90% of you I haven't played it yet so I don't know how similar) then gold buying will be a 'problem'. Honestly I think gold buying messes up the economy only slightly. The quickest I see farming sites offer gold is after about 1 month. Thats the time it takes them to max lvl some chars and start farming the good items / gold. They will Meph run (D2 reference) over and over and over getting drops.

Gold buying isn't a problem as long as the game isn't exploitable. In Vanguard there is a dupe bug. So gold is worthless now. In wow things are expensive but not in such a way that things are unobtainable at lvl 60 or now 70. Where gold buying comes into effect is the lower level gear which all the noobs want. But after a few months people will have max lvl chars and will roll toons funded by there high level chars. So if your a low level you just have to expect not to have the best gear on the market. Not a huge problem imo.

Summary: Gold buying is not a problem in any balanced game. Also: tl;dr

[Warden]

I'm not concerned about gold selling. I'm worried about item selling. Unlike wow, items will not bind in hgl. It allows farmers to grind the hell out of the game and sell the possibly best items on their sites, making a big buck.

[Sulfuric]

I'm not concerned about gold selling. I'm worried about item selling. Unlike wow, items will not bind in hgl. It allows farmers to grind the hell out of the game and sell the possibly best items on their sites, making a big buck.

Actually, because of balance issues, there are items that Bind in Hellgate: London.


Not all do, but some do.

[David Ritchey]

I just ran a quick search on gold farmers. Looks like they have power leveling services too lol. What can't people think of to make a quick buck these days? Gold farmers ruined my experience for WoW and by the looks of it, you guys have had a fair share of experiences too.



What were the servers for D2 like? What's the difference from the WoW servers? Sorry I only played D2 offline. Presumably it's exactly like battle.net?

Yes. The D2 servers ARE in fact Battle.net. And it's like starcraft in that you log on and search for games to join, though unlike SC you can join in at any time during the game.

In WoW, each server, I'm assuming, is responsible for one game world. A person's characters are created on a server and stay on that server, and stay in that world with its group of players.
With Battle.net, there are multiple servers serving to network every player on a 'realm' (group of servers) with every other player.

[Dekun]

There is a good old article written by Jeff Vogel about buying gold.

World of Warcraft has a lot of tedium. To take on the really tough dungeons and the really big monsters, you have to shell out a lot of time or cash for potions and repair costs; when you die, which happens a lot, you have to pay to maintain your weapons and armor, which can be very expensive. Because I can, I choose not to burn time having no fun farming gold in order to be able to do the stuff that is fun. Instead of paying $14.95 a month to play a game I enjoy sometimes, I'll pay 20 bucks a month to make the game something I really like.

If you really have a problem with me spending money to skip the tedious, time-wasting sections of a game, get rid of the tedious, time-wasting sections.

In the meantime, I'll play the game I bought in a way that maximizes the fun of my painfully limited free time. And I will give thanks for living in a country so affluent that we can even pay people to play our games for us. Full Article Here (http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/711/711593p1.html)

I have to agree with him 100%. My WoW guild has a few game developers from different companies, including one of the Lead designers from EQ2, I wont mention his department or name. They also purchase gold for the reasons stated above. As long as its not causing grief among other players, have fun. If the game Isn't any fun, quit! I ebay'd my account a few weeks ago after having played WoW since beta phase 1(8 months before launch) and having met almost every member of my guild in real life. Many of my guild mates will be heading to HG:L upon release. Heres to more playing and less farming! So yea, I'm not sure where I was going with this, it's 3am CST, just got back from a Fall Out Boy concert, and... I guess what I'm trying to say is, buy gold if you want, or don't buy gold. Have fun and be respectful.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Woot for my first post! :-P

[Ygorion]

I have mixed feeling about gold farmers. it's somewhat better for them to work in "playing" a game instead of working in a coal mine.
what was annoying for us is the contant spaming in some places (level one characters with name like zefzefzefg spaming in vicinity) and sometimes farming place.
this exist only because there are countries where 10 or 15 dollars is one tenth of one month of work...

[Krazy Kaution]

Guys... there will be no problem lol. For those who have played Mythos know that gold is not hard to come by. Same with Hellgate: London. In fact, those who play Mythos, when they play HG:L they'll notice similar economies. Your shops are random, and honestly, twinking your char in HG:L is near impossible unless you do it the old fashion way of getting drops and tossing them down the chain to noobs or other characters of your own. I don't think there will be a problem with inflation at all. This isn't GW, item prices aren't determined by supply/demand and availability of gold (palladium).

[VorAbaddon]

**WARNING: LONG POST FORMING**

Well then Dekun, your first post reveals the type of gamer you are. Sad.

It's not okay. Period. And it DOES have impacts. Let's discuss. But first, some background:

I come from EQ mainly, though now also an EVE fan. So, from my EQ time I'm QUITE used to heavy farming. I've also seen the account/item/plat trade up front. My server, Firiona Vie, is most subject to it becuase we lack the normal rule where 99% of items are "No Drop", meaning they cannot be sold or traded or even dropped once looted. Wear em, bank em, or destroy em ((Or, alternatively, corpse them, but that's basically banking them.)) The top guild on the server is led by a guy who is heavily involved.


Onto the points:

A) Farming is NOT an equivalent to gold selling/item selling/account selling. Farming is an MMO term which means repeating an area, instance, quest, or simply camping near a spot where a named has a chance of spawning in order to either rack up bags of loot for various reasons or for a specific set of items needed. For example, if I wanted to do some smithing in EQ, I would "Farm" the Temple of Ssra for Shissar scales ((Big snake guys.)) I'm not cheating, not buying the items, etc. Just killing them a lot to get a lot of the scales becuase I need a lot for smithing. This is farming. This is, in and of itself, a harmless practice. My raid guild does content regularly in order to obtain loot. Even leaving instances out, about... wow, 2.5 years ago, we hit the Plane of Fire regularly for it's "mini's" or mini-bosses, which dropped molds for elemental armor, at the time big upgrades for us. Even then, we were killing mobs that didn't spawn for 3 days, so we were preventing other similar folks from killing them. BUT, we needed that kind of gear in order to progress further. Farming there is competitive, but still not detrimental. It's a normal MMO process. Farming is not, in and of itself, bad.

B) Gold/Item/Account sales DO impact players outside the buyer/seller:

First, it creates a secondary macroeconomy within the game. Basically, within the game you have an economy where everything has an average value based on what the player community is willing to pay. This is influenced by many factors. Drop rates, influx of coin, coin sinks, etc. So, if, of 50 people, the average they're willing to pay for the Helm of Uber Monotony is 500 gold, then the HUM is worth 500g. Simple, has it's quirks, but works out.

Now, however, you're adding a secondary value layer. The helm takes time to get. Say it's on a mob you can do... once every 5 days with a 1/6 chance of it dropping each time ((And yes, I can relate SPECIFIC items I'm talking about in EQ to this drop rate, it's realistic.)) Now you take these same 50 people, and the average they're willing to pay for it is $5. So, $5 = HUM = 500g. Simple enough.

Now, though, you have another item. The Greaves of Uber Monotony. Take those 50 people. They're willing to pay around 300 gold to get it, it's a slightly more common drop off the same mob as the HUM. So, GUM = 300g. But when asked, they'd pay 2 bucks for it, because real world currency has it's OWN factors that change it's value and alter decisions. So now, $2 = GUM = 300g. Or, alternatively, $2 = 300g. But earlier, $5 = 500g... one's a 2:3 ratio, the other a 1:1 ratio. Something is wrong.

By adding a secondary value layer to gold and thus items, or vice versa, you're adding a further complication to the in-game economic model. And let me tell you something, MMO economic models are already fucked up, becuase they're both inherently inflationary, even hyper-inflationary, and also inherently deflationary. Adding another value layer makes it even worse.

To give an example of a possible negative effect, imagine a guy gets a relatively new item, a GRUM, or Greaves of Really Uber Monotony. Now, since it's kinda new, a set average price hasn't developed yet. Now, the guy can't use em, so he wants to sell the item, but doesn't know what for because of the market not being developed. So he picks a price point, say 2000 gold, and decides it sounds good, so he puts it up. Now, everyone wanting to buy it has a value judgment to make, is it worth the hours I put in to make 2000 gold for that item? But the gold buyer has a SLIGHTLY different judgment, is it worth the hour for X dollars to buy 2000g for that item? The thing is, the gold that he's buying isn't going to be valued as highly as the first set of people would value it, becuase it's being accrued/farmed by workers who are making money for doing so, for a company profiting from those assets. That's what they do in game, so they don't see heavy farming as a reptetitive, but necessary activity. Instead, it's an oppurtunity, so they don't mind as much. Thus, their value of gold/hour drops, and it can drop that value low enough that the buyer, satisified that his hourly wage value far exceeds the cost going toward getting that item that it's bought at this high price, usually in this case higher than most in the market who have to take time out of OTHER things they do in game to get the gold would.

In this instance, it artificially inflates the market value of an item and holds it aloft longer becuase of the value discrepancies. Thus, ACTUAL players, people playing the right way, have to spend more and have a harder time obtaining items becuase other people got cheap and impatient. Which brings me to my next point.

C) Boring/Repetitive material is NOT necessarily bad.

Sorry, if you're excuse is "I don't want to take the time to get X item, so I should just be able to buy it.", that won't fly with me. The reason is, in MMO's, the purpose is to build your character. You're not supposed to fly through the game in uber "OMG, I'm god mode!" The point to upgrading your character is to tackle stronger, more difficult challenges, and if you take away the TIME and EFFORT it takes to obtain these upgrades, they mean nothing. Right now, I'm weilding the very same cudgel I've been using for two years becuase we've gotten REALLY unlucky on upgrade drops. But that Eulogy, once I get the bastard, will taste that much sweeter because I've waited this long.

This isn't some old school shooter where the goal was to wrack up points, or a mario game where your solution to everything was "Jump on it's head." You're supposed to build a character, and that's supposed to take time.

This naturally means some content will be, at the very least, relatively boring. An example:

In the Vule fight in EQ, my job is simple. Feign Death near a lever, pull lever when told. That's it. Because I'm a shadowknight and I can FD. The paladins, on the other hand, get to tank at points and go BALLISTIC with Slay Undeads on Vule himself, wracking up crazy DPS numbers, watching the crits, and generally laughing their heads off. Meanwhile, I'm bored off my ass. So, why not just quit? Becuase it makes progression that worthwhile. There are events where the DPS folks are bored, and the tanks are going crazy having fun.

Not every event in a game with multiple classes and builds will be designed with YOUR class/build in mind and sometimes you're going to have to sit on your ass and suck it up.

Give you another example: In the Kunark days of EQ, when the Epics first were unveiled, the Rogue epic was widely regarded as the easiest. In fact, the "Ragebringer" was often referred to as the "Freebringer." Whereas the Shadowknight epic, among others, was regarded as one of the most difficult, if not THE most difficult. ((Mages and SK's particularly have gone back and forth a lot about this one.)) So when you saw an SK with his Innoruuk's Curse in hand, it MEANT something. Or when you saw a non-Iksar SK with his Greenmist, meaning they did COUNTLESS hours of shitty, boring faction-building, it MEANT something. It showed a love for their character, and a devotion to the game.

That's something to keep in mind. MMO's aren't your standard FPS. It's not some cut-and-dried, D&D wannabe RPG. They're hobbies. They're interests. They're passions. You're meant to GIVE A DAMN about your characters and reputation in-game, becuase it's a community.

It's like a Warhammer player. Sure, you could just BUY a painted army off Ebay and whip the ass of a player who spent less time reading up on strategyies and "perfect" army builds that took advantage of every rules loophole, and more time individually crafting each unit in his army, naming most, creating backstories etc. But guess who'll be called the better player every time, including at tournaments becuase there army design matters? The latter. Becuase he has a passion for what he does.

D) Gold/Account/Item trade has negative impacts becuase of who is doing the farming and how.

A common occurence in Lineage II, so I'm told, was to find the drop point of a popular/useful item permanently camped and farmed by a company. They'd farm the item night and day, corner the market on it, and use the gold from it's sale on the in game market to resell on sites. Usually, they charged incredulously high prices since they controlled the supply rigorously, ensuring people were likely buying gold to get the item, meaning they were seeing some of their own product come RIGHT back to them.

That's something else to keep in mind. Those who DO abuse farming, those who over-farm and perma-camp, those who do things like logging in corporate-run accounts just to PK anyone who threatens their control of an item or spawn, are often working in sweatshop conditions. This has particularly been a problem in China. Tired folks in piss-poor conditions getting paid cents on the their actual profits with high qoutas to make, crazy hours, and threats to the housing the job provides their families should they fall behind. What kind of mood is that person in when they play? They don't contribute to the community, they in fact take AWAY from it.

EQ had this problem, for example. There was an easily farmable mob with an item that, as I recall, had a nice focus for it's level, hard to attain. Was in... Noble's Causeway. And on a few servers, Tunare particularly, I think, it was camped by a duo, obviously notfamilair with the English language, 24 hours a day. The character almost never logged, never left. Was played in shifts by different people. When someone else asked for the camp, they'd be responded to with crude English, badly worded threats and profanity,a nd if they didn't leave immediately, they'd be trained to oblivion.

E) My single biggest complaint: You have NO RIGHT to do it.

Selling plat/items/accounts is, in my mind, theft. Theft from who? The owning company. EVERYTHING on their servers is their property. It's THEIR game, THEIR characters, THEIR plat, THEIR items, etc. Doesn't matter how much time you put in, they still own it.

It's like a rented car. You could rent a car for years. It never becomes yours simply becuase you rented it for "So long". It doesn't matter how much time/effort you put it. You paid them for access, it's still legally their property. You have no right to do so.

And I'm tired of hearing this BS of "Well, I paid them for years, I'm trying to recoup." If you paid for years, you enjoyed it for years. If you hated it and kept paying, that's your own fault for being stupid. it's not a loss, it's what you chose to pay.

In short, It has negative effects on EVERYONE in the game, the entire community. There is no excuse for doing it. You're supporting negative additions to the game community. And you have NO right to do it in the first place.

[Iuris]

Actually, from the "price of bought items reflects player effort that went into procuring them", real world cash transactions are not problematic.

The problem is the negative impact on the rest of the economy. And that's a much bigger problem.

[ScytheNoire]

A) HGL has instanced combat areas, thus, Farming is not an issue. No one can corner the market, because any one can access any area's. It's one of the downfalls of a persistent world, farming.

B) Gold selling does affect games, but not always in a negative way. Sometimes it actually helps the economy. But more often it inflates things beyond what they should be.

C) If you enjoy boring and repetitive, then I guess you might see it as good. I personally don't. Get bored, move onto something not so boring. Bad for business.

D) Farming not an issue in HGL. No area is cut off from others. If people are playing the odds on drop rates, that's up to them. Any one can do that though, no one can stop another player.

E) This is a legal issue. It is their property, by law, because they own the servers and they own the data. But at the same time, players feel entitled because they are the one's putting in the time and effort, and often paying to play. So both have a point. But in the end, it's hard to players to win versus the company who owns the service. Best they can often do it stop playing the game. Enough people dislike the way a game is run, it will just hurt the game. See Star Wars Galaxies for example.

Concern level about farming and gold selling in Hellgate: Very Low.

[Warden]

Abaddon put a lot of effort making an awesome reply and i agree with him completly. To elaborate a little further: what are the detrimental effects of having gold selling companies farming the game?
(When i say farmers, in my post, i mean sweat shop payed for farmers)

1. Increase in the ammount of gold available. Since there is more gold in the economy, its relative value starts to decrease. This is called inflation. The same item will be sold for a higher price. On the other hand, the ammount of gold you make per hour is still the same. This forces the legit player to farm more time to be able to buy this same item.

Example: Let's say you can farm 20g per hour. You want a nice helmet that would cost, in a legit economy, 500g. You will need 25 hours to farm to be able to get it. Now let's say the server is filled with farmers. With more gold in the server, inflation kicks in and now the same helmet sells for 1000g. That forces the legit player to expend not only 25 hours doing a boring grind, but 50.

2. The farmers will be grinding the spots that will net them the highest ammount of gold per hour. This will have 3 impacts:

2a. Decrease in the price of the farmed items. Since they will be farming this specific spot non-stop, the items gathered will have their price lowered.

Example: In wow there was an exploit that allowed the farmers to grind the last boss of dire maul without having to fight the trash mobs. Since the chest after him had a lot of mana potions, it drove their price down in the auction house from 25g to 4g.

Once again the legit player gets screwed. This drives his gold per hour ratio down, because the drops he got while farming are not worth what they were supposed to.

Example: I should be able to farm 20g per hour by farming health potions, as in the example previously given. But, since there are a lot those selling in the auction house, the price goes down and i'll get only 10g for them. To be able to buy that helmet, that in a healthy economy, would make me need to farm 25 hours (25 hours x 20 g/hour = 500g), now i'll need to farm for 100 hours (100 hours x 10g/hour = 1000g).

2b. Sharing farming spots. Since the farmers will take all good farming spots, you will have to share them with them. While it will reduce their income, it will also reduce yours. If you can only kill half of the mobs now (because the farmer is getting the other half), it means that you will get only half of the gold per hour with it.

Example: Not only the prices for items have increase and the prices you get for the items you sell are lower, but you also get only half of the items in the same time. So those health potions, that you sell for 10g. Instead of getting them in 1 hour worth of farming, you will need now 2 hours. That reduces your gold per hour ratio to 5g per hour. So to be able to buy that helmet, that in a healthy economy, would make me need to farm 25 hours (25 hours x 20 g/hour = 500g), now i'll need to farm for 200 hours (200 hours x 5g/hour = 1000g).

2c. Possible monopoly. The prices of the items farmed will usually go down, except when they can control the market. In these cases, they will sell for the highest price possible.

Example: In WoW pre-expansion there was a rare herb called Black Lotus. There were only 4 territories that would spawn it only 1 of them. Also, when you picked it, it would take 1 hour to respawn. Since the farmers would pick it, they would know the EXACT time it would respawn, therefore they would pick every single one of them.

At this specific time in wow, people were trying an encounter called THE TWIN EMPERORS. One of them would be able to do a high ammount of damage in a small time frame, so to make the encounter guilds needed to use flasks to increase the health on their tanks. Each flask needed a black lotus.

When the farmers realized that, they dominated the black lotus market, making its price go from 3-5g to 30-40g on our server (warsong). This increased the ammount of gold we needed to maintain our raiding guild going (costs are usually repairs + consumables).

The ammount of gold that you can get is usually reduced by the ammount needed to maintain your expenses. So if you farmed for 10 hours per week, in this scenario of ours, you would get 50g. After paying for repairs + consumables. Now if the consumables prices go up, you will need to expand more money on them, so your net profit in the end is lower. Reduced, maybe to 40g.

[ScytheNoire]

Holy crap, it's like Warden didn't read a thing and has no clue about this game.

FARMING IS NOT AN ISSUE AS EVERYTHING IS INSTANCED

Ugh... please people, read and know which game you are talking about. This is not EQ, WoW, or any other farmable persistent world game. This is Hellgate. It plays by it's own rules.

[Destructis]

If it has value in an economy in game, they will sell it. I am just not sure if FSS has any type of plan to control it at all. The only way I can see a gold seller not selling is if gold is worthless.

[Brother Laz]

If it has value in an economy in game, they will sell it. I am just not sure if FSS has any type of plan to control it at all. The only way I can see a gold seller not selling is if gold is worthless.

It will be. They said it will be about as valuable as in D2.

......

The most important thing to prevent trading for real money is that no single item should be massively better than everything else. People trade duped eBotDz because it is the best weapon, period. People buy WoW gold because it is the only way to obtain half the stuff in the game.

If there are lots of good items, less great items, even less almost-perfect items, and the perfect item is hard to find, then there will be much less item selling because you stand a reasonable chance to find something decent yourself.

In D2 as a melee character, if you don't find Dracul's Grasp, your gloves suck. You can keep farming for Dracul's Grasp and not find it, and your gloves will still suck. There should be ample middle ground, so while you may not be able to find Dracul's easily, you should be able to get something comparable in less time.

Most of the complaints about random drops and 'wasted time' in D2 (and therefore, most of the items sold for real cash) are people who need 1 specific item, nothing else in the game is comparable, and they can't find it.

[Mercurio]

FARMING IS NOT AN ISSUE AS EVERYTHING IS INSTANCED

:-?

The main problem is about the effect of farming on the game economy.
Even GW has it - and it is all instanced too. (but gold in GW has not real effect on gameplay, so was a concern only for the kids that want a "cool" sword or armor)

If the inflation goes up, new players or casual players are taken away from the market.

btw I think we will not wait for long before a game house itself will start selling weapons and gold for its game. This was a Microsoft proposal at their latest game developers conference.

[Sulfuric]

Holy crap, it's like Warden didn't read a thing and has no clue about this game.

FARMING IS NOT AN ISSUE AS EVERYTHING IS INSTANCED

Ugh... please people, read and know which game you are talking about. This is not EQ, WoW, or any other farmable persistent world game. This is Hellgate. It plays by it's own rules.

Scythe, sorry, but you're wrong.

Farming is an issue in any game, and instances actually make it a little easier. You find the place that gives you the best rewards, you keep generating that instance. You keep running it. You keep farming it.

Farm was a term from before standard MMOs when people could just stand in one place and wait on Monster Respawns...Diablo 2 had farming.



As for the economy -- even if Flagship thinks Pd will be "Worthless", it's not necessarily true. The player's determine what has value.

[Rampage]

It is not just game gold that unbalances a games economy. True, D2 gold was almost worthless and gold farming was never a problem in that game but you had another currency in that game. SOJ and later Runes.

Instead of gold farmers you had hackers and dupers. If there is a way to make real money from exploiting those that play the game but are too impatient to progress legitamately then the profteers will find it.

[d24e]

It will be. They said it will be about as valuable as in D2.

......

The most important thing to prevent trading for real money is that no single item should be massively better than everything else. People trade duped eBotDz because it is the best weapon, period. People buy WoW gold because it is the only way to obtain half the stuff in the game.

If there are lots of good items, less great items, even less almost-perfect items, and the perfect item is hard to find, then there will be much less item selling because you stand a reasonable chance to find something decent yourself.

In D2 as a melee character, if you don't find Dracul's Grasp, your gloves suck. You can keep farming for Dracul's Grasp and not find it, and your gloves will still suck. There should be ample middle ground, so while you may not be able to find Dracul's easily, you should be able to get something comparable in less time.

Most of the complaints about random drops and 'wasted time' in D2 (and therefore, most of the items sold for real cash) are people who need 1 specific item, nothing else in the game is comparable, and they can't find it.

That'd be nice indeed. Like playing through normal with a sigon set compared to having all normal uniques. Sigon set will do just fine, but all uniques is better/harder to find.

Back in 1.09 this was more the case because most hell/nm uniques were sufficient. Like doombringer vs grandfather. Yeah gf was better but it was also pretty hard to get a good one so until you had it you'd just use doombringer and still do pretty decent damage. Then 1.10 came and made them obsolete while offering a lot of new uber items everyone needed to have for hell baalruns.

Not that I have anything against 1.10 runewords, I'm rich anyway.

[d24e]

It is not just game gold that unbalances a games economy. True, D2 gold was almost worthless and gold farming was never a problem in that game but you had another currency in that game. SOJ and later Runes.

Instead of gold farmers you had hackers and dupers. If there is a way to make real money from exploiting those that play the game but are too impatient to progress legitamately then the profteers will find it.

I wouldn't call it exploiting the players that buy their gold. No one's forcing them to buy it, they make their own choice to do so.

Exploiting chinese kids maybe, but for them it's probably a better job to have than sowing shoes in a sweatshop.

[Rampage]

I wouldn't call it exploiting the players that buy their gold. No one's forcing them to buy it, they make their own choice to do so.

Exploiting chinese kids maybe, but for them it's probably a better job to have than sowing shoes in a sweatshop.

You are right. I should have said "exploiting the flaw in the game mechanics".

I have read several exposes on the Chinese Gold Farmers sweat shops and my impression is that those young men are happy to be working at playing a game rather than toiling in the factories or fields of China.

[ScytheNoire]

Scythe, sorry, but you're wrong.

Farming is an issue in any game, and instances actually make it a little easier. You find the place that gives you the best rewards, you keep generating that instance. You keep running it. You keep farming it.

Farm was a term from before standard MMOs when people could just stand in one place and wait on Monster Respawns...Diablo 2 had farming.



As for the economy -- even if Flagship thinks Pd will be "Worthless", it's not necessarily true. The player's determine what has value.

But farming won't affect other players in the sense of a persistent world where farmers cut off other players from certain zones. I saw this happen in WoW where you pretty much had to get an entire guild there to shoo the farmers out of the area. That's what most were talking about when talking about farming.
Not an issue in Hellgate.

As for currency having value, it will all depend on the auction house. The auction house is the key, as it runs on currency, not item exchange. A good auction house will mean a good commerce. Without the auction house, currency will not be as effective.

So getting the auction houses into Hellgate should be a very high priority to be sure to have a successful in game currency.

[d24e]

But farming won't affect other players in the sense of a persistent world where farmers cut off other players from certain zones. I saw this happen in WoW where you pretty much had to get an entire guild there to shoo the farmers out of the area. That's what most were talking about when talking about farming.
Not an issue in Hellgate.

As for currency having value, it will all depend on the auction house. The auction house is the key, as it runs on currency, not item exchange. A good auction house will mean a good commerce. Without the auction house, currency will not be as effective.

So getting the auction houses into Hellgate should be a very high priority to be sure to have a successful in game currency.

Since the devs said currency will be like d2, worthless, I get the feeling the auction house will really be more of a bulletin board where you put up items you have for trade (maybe with a message of what u need). So we don't have those ridiculous Lineage 2 towns where hundreds of people gather to sit down with their WTS balloon overhead.

Why use gold currency when you can just go out for a few minutes and vendor some armors to create more wealth? You'd have to deal with enormous amounts of gold for every purchase, easier to just trade item for item and let players decide what's fair.

[Storyteller]

Whatever approach they take, I hope its not limiting to what D2 was...

[VorAbaddon]

But farming won't affect other players in the sense of a persistent world where farmers cut off other players from certain zones. I saw this happen in WoW where you pretty much had to get an entire guild there to shoo the farmers out of the area. That's what most were talking about when talking about farming.
Not an issue in Hellgate.

That's not farming. That's "perma-camping", a VERY VERY different term.

Farming is nothing more than running something multiple times to try and obtain either a gout of items or a certain item. If I kill Lodizal ((an old, non-instanced EQ mob)) 100 times trying to get his back item, it's farming, and it's perfectly legitimate as long as I do not use unfair methods.

Farming is NOT a problem, nor has it ever BEEN a problem, so long as your methods are fair. Some examples of unfair methods:

Playing characters in "Shifts" so as to never allow someone else access.
Killing the mob just to avoid someone else having the chance to.
Exploiting the instance so it can be won in an unintended and dubious manner.
Training other people trying to get the item

Instances do avoid MOST of these, but these are NOT legitimate farming methods. Farming is normal, expected, and harmless in MMO's.

[DStriderC]

I remember in D2 days. the 1st currency is perfect skulls than Sojs.
7P Skulls = 1 Soj. Shako,Skill Charms, = 2 Soj, Stormshields = 4Soj.
Items like "Impshanks"= 7Soj, Unique cranium basher/ber = 15soj, eaglehorn = 30sojs, wingforce/granfather/zod = 40sojs.
trading is fun :)

[ScytheNoire]

Since the devs said currency will be like d2, worthless, I get the feeling the auction house will really be more of a bulletin board where you put up items you have for trade (maybe with a message of what u need). So we don't have those ridiculous Lineage 2 towns where hundreds of people gather to sit down with their WTS balloon overhead.

Why use gold currency when you can just go out for a few minutes and vendor some armors to create more wealth? You'd have to deal with enormous amounts of gold for every purchase, easier to just trade item for item and let players decide what's fair.

when did the developers say the currency will be worthless? quote?

as with other MMO's, an auction house and things to spend money on are key to a good economy. just see WoW.

so having an auction house and things to spend money on will keep the economy strong. problem with Diablo II is that it lacked things to spend money on. no crafting system, no extra's to buy, no guilds or guild halls, no auction house.

Diablo II is just a horrible example. it lacks too much compared to modern MMO games, and compared to what Hellgate is suppose to have.

[Iuris]

See, Scythe, that's the issue here.

The devs only stated gold will be like D2.

Terror among the masses, but you are not worried.

However, you automatically expect them to improve the economy of the game. Your post already assumes the following improvements to D2 economy:
-auction house
-existence of things to spend money on
-money sinks (crafting,extras to buy,guilds,guild halls)

However, the above assumes the dev statement is incomplete, as D2 economy had none of that.

I hope you are right and FSS is only bad at PR...

[ScytheNoire]

I don't think it's that they are bad at PR, just more of a misunderstanding.

I know they said auction houses will be a post launch thing, but it's a high priority item for a successful economy. They should push back the release date if they have to to get the auction houses in there, that's how important they are to the games economy.

I just hate comparing Hellgate to Diablo II. It's been seven years since the release of Diablo II, and in gaming terms, that's a hell of a long time. To compare the two is just unfair to Hellgate.

[Iuris]

Good PR is saying things in such a way that there are no misunderstandings.

But, I'm glad we finally have a topic we can agree on, Scythe. A unified trading system is needed, as a regular feature. As soon as you don't have one, you get trade spam messages all over the place.

[Storyteller]

Thats a good idea, do you guys care to further develop that?

[Ygorion]

did you think that in the end, where there's only a few human alive in a dying world who try to resist to an iminent and inelulctable genocide against them, some form of currency could still exist ??

money seem to be a nonsense in this world anyway...

[ScytheNoire]

did you think that in the end, where there's only a few human alive in a dying world who try to resist to an iminent and inelulctable genocide against them, some form of currency could still exist ??

money seem to be a nonsense in this world anyway...

guess you didn't read the story. first, there's more than just a few. second, the currency, palladium, is used to make things by others. third, what's your brilliant idea, we just steal everything, or do we trade goats, or maybe we just rape and pillage our way through the game?
:rolleyes:

[Darksci]

or do we trade goats

We did that back in the good 'ole days. Maybe we should do it in the future as well :D

[Sulfuric]

If Stint has a hand in developing the game, you do more than just trade goats.

[DStriderC]

or maybe we just rape and pillage our way through the game?
Great idea! Really! :)

[BrigAce]

I'm not sure where I was going with this, it's 3am CST, just got back from a Fall Out Boy concert, and... I guess what I'm trying to say is, buy gold if you want, or don't buy gold. Have fun and be respectful.

Oh yea, I almost forgot. Woot for my first post! :-P


How was the concert? =P

[Dekun]

How was the concert? =P

Amazing :cool:

Here is a recording from the show. Fall Out Boy Covers Micheal Jackson's Beat It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUjS2bOqUO4)

[Sulfuric]

Amazing :cool:

Here is a recording from the show. Fall Out Boy Covers Micheal Jackson's Beat It (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUjS2bOqUO4)

Did you go DA DAAA IN A LULEELURAH?

[Dekun]

Did you go DA DAAA IN A LULEELURAH?

LOL, you know (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1651997757427874922&q=luleelurah&hl=en) it.

[Seabass]

just got back from a Fall Out Boy concert

Lol. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own musical tastes, but I couldn't help it. I know a girl that went and if the other fans are anything like her......I feel bad for the band.

Btw. http://yourscenesucks.com/ . Look at the #1 Pete Wentz Fan :p .

[Dekun]

Lol

Too much of a badass for Fall Out Boy?

[Seabass]

Too much of a badass for Fall Out Boy?

If by too much of a badass you mean do I listen to things that are......harder? Ya, I'm definitely a metalhead :p . Btw, I fixed my post, realizing I came off as a bit of an asshole.

[Dekun]

Lol. I understand that everyone is entitled to their own musical tastes, but I couldn't help it. I know a girl that went and if the other fans are anything like her......I feel bad for the band.

Btw. http://yourscenesucks.com/ . Look at the #1 Pete Wentz Fan

I understand what you are saying, Hell, Fall Out Boy isnt exactly proud of their seen either. Its actually funny how mean they are on stage to all the TRL MTV girls and after their first song the other night they thanked all the "dudes" for having the balls to come to the show and putting up with the teenie boppers... ;)


If by too much of a badass you mean do I listen to things that are......harder? Ya, I'm definitely a metalhead . Btw, I fixed my post, realizing I came off as a bit of an asshole.

:cool: Right on, I like harder stuff too, but I like Fall Out Boy as well. Im a former US Marine and I catch alot of flack from friends for liking FOB. The upbeat melodies and lyric content of he music make me want to... Dance, dance! hehe <3

[Seabass]

Ya, I'm really a fan of all types of music, and though I may not particularly like a band or artist, I still respect what they do. One of my favorite bands is Pink Floyd and in Comparison with Hatebreed, for example, they're two completely different styles.

[Ygorion]

guess you didn't read the story. first, there's more than just a few. second, the currency, palladium, is used to make things by others. third, what's your brilliant idea, we just steal everything, or do we trade goats, or maybe we just rape and pillage our way through the game?
:rolleyes:

Barter ? merchant could record what you give to theim and eventually gave you access to better stuff... Ancient Egypt had no currency for 2000 years (i'm not admirative in any way of this civilization). it was not to have a "brilliant idea" it was just to said that in a game it may exist some other form of economics than basic currency values.

[VorAbaddon]

Barter ? merchant could record what you give to theim and eventually gave you access to better stuff... Ancient Egypt had no currency for 2000 years (i'm not admirative in any way of this civilization). it was not to have a "brilliant idea" it was just to said that in a game it may exist some other form of economics than basic currency values.


Non-currency forms of exchange are flawed, convoluted, pointless, and wasteful in any modern society. Ancient people got away with it because they didn't know any better, because the society was so ill-educated the merchants could screw over most of the populace, and because the ruling elite always took their cut.

Barter as a means of exchange lacks the kind of set value's and liquidity that's usually preferred in modern dealings.

[CmL]

Sorry for the very late reply. And thanks for the input, people. At least it cleared my thought about the drawbacks and how hard it is to prevent this problem from occurring. At this point of time, unless FSS has a solid fool-proof system to tackle this problem, I have a feeling gold farming will eventually happen.

It's just very hard to control the gaming community I guess. As long as there are people who want the "short cut" out of things, there are people who would exploit that flaw and make some money.

*my gnome lock Casts Enslave*

"I command thee! Thou shalt not farm gold!"

[VorAbaddon]

It'll happen no matter WHAT system they have, for 2 reasons:

A) Some farming is reasonable and therefore should be allowed.

B) It's VERY hard to detect some of the non-reasonable/exploitive forms.

[buddyp450]

Actually, because of balance issues, there are items that Bind in Hellgate: London.


Not all do, but some do.

whatever happened to bill roper saying nothing will ever exist that binds? or did someone just SAY he said that

[d24e]

Maybe it's just some quest items that bind, god I hope so.