Here is everything they did wrong and they should feel bad

[BryanM]

This was originally posted a thousand years ago on the official forums, but suddenly and mysteriously disappeared last night.

Hello. Here are some of the fundamental design failures you made.

The game space

First up, the game space is atrocious. The fact that everything is just various shades of grey and that you have 1/5 of the needed tilesets to make playing through the ~100 battle zones even once an enjoyable experience is the least of the fail.

That the city sets aren't actually put together like a real city (with avenues and roads and gas stations and The Bititish GAP and such) - that you don't have a depth of variety to your lego blocks (such as being able to emerge out of a sewer to a ditch to an industrial area on the same map) - these are more serious problems. Have you ever played Sim City? Have you ever gone outside?

The biggest failure is that the space is built like a very linear rat maze, and is a miserable place to be. That you have ~100 battle zones is not a good thing, it is very bad. You would have been better off with less than half as many with twice the depth.

But maybe that's why there's so many zones in the first place: your levels are boring and you want to hide it by rotating the shades of grey.

And if you wanted this to be more of an "MMO", you could have had combat zones with multiple exits. They could have been large common areas where many people could be pooled into - should it be necessary to party with someone to play with them? Even if they're just effectively background scenery?

Does someone go to a bar to drink alone with no one else around? Or do they just stay home to do this?

At least on the size issue, the Stonehenge update appears it will offer less crappy areas to play in.

The obvious reason the game space is the most important issue is you can change almost anything else, but I hardly can imagine you'd ever excise Forgotten Ducts and company.

The Storyline

I think you've gotten the wrong message that people don't give a damn about a storyline. It wasn't a free ticket to make everything zany and insert excessive Star Trek references. It meant that people are tired of jumping through hoops to get to where they're going.

Just being able to decide where to level up does wonders to a person's psyche. Creating a rat tunnel for people to race through over and over is just enormous suck.

Let me make this simple for you:

Diablo 1: Random quests you can choose to do or not. Kill Diablo.
Diablo 2: Run past a bunch of stupid crap. Kill Andarial. Kill Duriel. Kill Mephisto. Kill Diablo. Kill Baal.
Hellgate: Do a bunch of stupid crap. Kill Cthulhu.

(Diablo 1 is the best of these by the way)

That many insipid quests reward attribute points makes them mandatory for anyone trying to accomplish the goal of the game. Since you clearly don't know the goal of the game, I'll tell you: to become a badass.

That the bosses just kind of pop onto the scene is not good, but not a huge deal, but...

Bosses

Holy crap man. World of Warcraft has bosses with multiple attack states... and....

Shooting games have done this for decades now get on the damn trolley

Body segments that can get blown off. Attack patterns that change as the fight draws on. Shooting games want to be awesome, why don't you?

Why the hell do I go to the Tower of London and yet don't get to go inside for an epic battle? With floating medusa heads maybe?

You just don't want epic, you want grey, don't you?

The official webpage

Come. On. This is the ugliest thing I've ever seen for an Online Game. Ever visit the webpage of World of Warcraft, Guildwars, Everquest.... Anything? This is the face you're presenting to people, and its ugly as all crap: the old defunct page was a thousand times better.

I am utterly shocked you don't have a guy whose entire job is, is to make the website not suck.

And not allowing people without accounts to read the forums? Fascinating. Hiding...

Level scaling

You seriously want to normalize everything, don't you? Feed system? Skill points that don't do jack? What the hell.

Put some damn slack in the retarded scaling. Just +~4 levels would be nice. It would be nice to get more experience from fighting things a little above your level. It would be nice to be able to survive more than two hits from something eight levels above you.

It would be nice if something other than character level mattered in combat.

Enemies

Holy crap. Zombies... in the last freaking zones of the game?

You have freaking palette swaps, and never use them. Color does make a difference. Blood Zombies and Gremlins are noticed.

You have neat unique monster types, and never use them. ~3 fiend priests in the game, really? 4-armed sword dudes get to show up about twice?

And you know what else?

I know you're trying to make each and every monster type have its own attack pattern, so that you have to play a bit differently when confronting them.

But you don't have to do this. Not every monster has to be its own special snowflake. It's okay to have two or more monsters fill the same role. Remember those goat men and skeletons? Goat archers and skeleton archers? It did make a difference, and people did care about them.

A bit more of tragedy is their design - you kind of hinted at an Lovecraft-esque design, and the imps do look kind of alien, and the guys who appear in pillars of flame are otherworldly, but mostly everything else is Generic Town. A bit more tentacles would bring the room together nicely, thank you.

And Death Knights.

And you don't need zombies in every zone. Seriously.

At least Nightmare mixes up the encounter tables a little bit.

Weapons

Hey these are mostly neat.

How absurdly +skill affixes are weighted is... absurd though.

Feed system

You are not being innovative with the feed system. You are not better serving the player. You are not a special snowflake. Being different does not always mean being equal.

You already did a decent job making attributes matter - everyone wants willpower since their skills cost more to use with level. Strength yields melee damage, weapon range, and armor. Accuracy for many weapons. Vitality for life and equipment. Everyone can use everything, and most people want at least three attributes.

That should have been good enough.

But the numbers currently on affixes is extremely punishing. Plus all attributes isn't just desirable, it's the most important affix.

But the number of points all attributes yields is set too high; it should be about half what the best modifier to a single stat gives. If I was the one calling the shots, I would increase the upper bounds on the single attributes rather than bring +All Attributes down.

As for the feed system, the choice is between making it relevant and making it more a formality that doesn't put up much of a wall. Here is the decision we have currently:

"Hmmmmmm should I allocate my equipment so that I have lots of defense or should I kit myself out to be a killing machine of perpetual hyper death."

That isn't a decision at all, since the point of the game is... being awesome? There are some nerds who defend it, just because they're uncomfortable with change, or just like to start massive arguments on the internets. All the other nerds are choosing their armor to equip better weapons. (And note that +minion damage is along the exact same lines.)

We're not choosing attributes as much as we are choosing equipment. And that would be fine, if the gear choices were static. But it's not: finding better stuff is at the heart of these games, and putting something in that gets in the way of that is like taking a bath in a pit of mud.

Forcing a skill point on everyone

This is stupid. But I guess it makes sense since...

You do not value skill points

What the hell. A skill point should be at least as good as five attribute points. No matter where it goes.

Blademaster
Surges: Surges should procure their buffs on any hit.

Surge Mastery: Should also add some base +% damage to surge attacks.

Crosscutter: Timer should be ripped out completely. Added points should add damage.

Sword Master: This is a stupid skill that should have never been added. I suppose it could increase the use rate of the two sword tossing skills. Or range.

Sword Typhon: Lower the timer.

Sword of Authority: Fix the timer to a flat ~6-8 seconds. Have it do added damage with points so using it will be worth the massive time investment it takes. (Sword of Justice currently: more net damage than this skill and it comes out NOW, not 3 seconds later.)

Whirlwind: Would be nice to have around a 10 second timer. Should add damage or attack speed with points.

Evasion: It would be nice if there were some +evasion skill that could net you around 10% dodge. Thorns is the obvious choice since it sucks so much, but does not match that skill's theme well at all. You could rename it, however.

Having surges be always on would not be overpowered. It costs freaking energy and time to use the things. Surge of Wrath can be toned down, and everything will be right as rain.

Surge Mastery adding some damage would enable Surge-only builds.

That you put a timer on Crosscutter is incomprehensible. You have this awesome skill that could make unique and interesting variant Blademasters.. and you make it utterly undesirable. What the hell is wrong with you. Why don't you want to be awesome?

It pains me that Hamper requires a billion points in Sword of Authority and Sword of Reckoning - the two crappiest damage skills in the Blademaster's tree. It would be nice if the prerequisites were cheaper. And that those two skills didn't suck. Reckoning can use extra overload or penetration added to it, or better yet a higher critical rate.

Make things competitive with Sword of Justice.

And hey, while we're at it...

Build some skill trees with more than one build in them.

Evoker

Hey. Each spell acts like a different gun. Spectral Bolt is a spectral Tempest Rifle. Swarm is like one of those hive pistols. The damage is throttled by energy instead of accuracy or power.

You know what would be super? If maybe we could get a little of what the Marksman gets to do with his guns built into the skills themselves. I'm not asking for multi-shot levels of cheese here, just something equivalent to Beacon.

+45% damage at level 10 would not be overpowered with how things are. And stop being afraid of old solutions just because you feel like doing something different: again, you're not being innovative. Skill Points that mattered were awesome - you are not.

Imagine specialized builds, instead of generalized ones...

Summoner

How much do I care about the left side of the tree? How much does anyone?

The Fiend Priest needs an attack of some kind to be anything more than for people who want to play something off-kilter. Not talking about EPIC DAMAGE here, just ANY DAMAGE. His healing could stand to be a set number, instead of a percentage, since in most instances elementals are going to be receiving heals. Since Brom's got this treatment, why not direct a design change at something that needs it for a change?

Warper. His activated skills are inferior to having a few more elementals out, so blah to them.

Elementals - it's cruel that you offer so many of these things. Since they GIVE ADDED DAMAGE, I find it hard to justify putting points into anything else. The temptation for 41 elementals is just too much. I know the 1328 energy I need to get there is a little out of reach. I don't care.

Just like skeletons from Diablo 2 - elementals need to be reduced in number. Not even from a balance perspective: just to be merciful to people's computers and internet connection. Has anyone ever got 5 summoners together with ~20 pets out? I wanna see~

They need to be cut down to about four a piece at ten, and have their other attributes boosted up to compensate. And other, truly interesting things to do with our energy should be offered.

Marksman

Two stances, and Rapid Fire. Those are about all the "active" skills we have. Hrm.

The old complaints still hold up, the grenades are too weak, the call downs are silly and are too much like the grenade mechanic.

Dye kits

Hey, there's an equipment slot for it. Hey, singleplayer player's can't use it. Hey, some of the color schemes on this +all attributes crap aren't pretty.

Variety

Variety.

[Virus]

I agree with it, and it's a shame how it's being censored off as an attack to FSS, and then disregarded as such.

Nice to see you're still around Bryan.

[Huskie]

I think it's an outrage that they censored it like that. The person who wrote that is a customer who paid for the game and thus has all the right in the world to write it in that tone and with those words.

How many people don't get pissed at restaurants because their plates arrived already cold, way smaller than described or simply something totally different than what was ordered? It's the same thing here. The people at the restaurant have to listen and at least make it seem like they are going to try to improve (if they indeed are, or will just spit in the plate after it gets swapped is another story), they can't just kick the customer who got served faulty food out of the restaurant just because he complained.

[BryanM]

I thought it disappeared since a fellow was starting to insult everyone who doesn't like the current state of the game. That maybe some flaming went on while I was asleep.

But such threads are traditionally locked, with a post from a mod explaining why, not deleted..

[harbinger]

Corporates and official forums have a much more strict "you are deleted" policy than fan forums.

You agree to it when you sign in. So you might call this arbitrary, but it's included in the "I agree" stuff.

If they didn't enforce that, the official forums would certainly be worser than it is actually.

Now about the list of stuffs the one I agree with are :
Lack of diversity in the enemies.
I have no problems with zombies. But I would have loved to see undead templars, undead cabalists, undead hunters, undead techsmith... well more undead stuffs.

But I also know HG:L isn't frozen in its current state. So I still hope it will change someday.

[Ave]

Will surprise people to know i agree in theory with many of the points made, but i think its the tone of the piece which got it deleted. It is pretty much an attack on FSS if it had just refrained from slating FSS it probably would still be there.
In short some very relevent points but an unfortunate inflamatory tone lets it down.

And as harbinger said none of the game is set in stone at all, thats why they have the sub model and content updates.
Refer to Hell Reavers recent post and decide does the basic game offer value for your £30 ($50) yes would be the answer.
Does it have enough variety to keep you entertained for years.. not yet no but if we believe FSS it will with time.
Make your decision, if you like the basic game and want to see it develop, stick around. If you dont then move on and play something else.

[Lonethar]

Me and lockwood would say he left some things out. :) Giligan...er...Edujackass would too.

[Ave]

Lockwood would go and dance on Bill Ropers mothers grave will pissing if he could so that means nothing :)

Oh and forgot in my last post... i whole heartedly agree with the website thing.
As a onetime semi professional freelance web designer i do wonder who the hell designed that ugly site and why they changed it from the previous one.

[Huskie]

@Harbinger & Ave: From a strictly legal point-of-view they shouldn't be allowed to remove complaints like that, since that forum is one of the two possible ways of making public, to all other customers and potential customers, one's dissatisfactions with their service (the other one would be publishing it in the press, but then since the game officially has customers overseas it would have to be some kind of worldwide press, which would be hardly affordable).

International software EULA's are usually pseudo-legal (and very frequently just plain illegal) protection of the company, which doesn't really mean anything since laws differ much between each user's country (and again, very frequently from the company's country itself).

The only half-plausible way of justifying that censorship would be if the USA doesn't have any legal customer-protection entity/laws (which I very much doubt is the case).

[Ave]

Sure Huskie but its their website, they can do what the hell they like and if they feel the post is inflamatory and will promote arguments they have every right to delete it.

Ask yourself this, if you went into McDonalds and started publicly announcing how they make their burgers from lips and assholes and everything the make is nasty unhealthy crap would they remove you from the restaurant... yes of course they would, cause its theirs.
You would have every right to shout that in the street but not in their backyard thats just common sense. And sites like guru are the internet equivalent of the streets.

[Lonethar]

Why do I agree with Huskie AND Ave at the same time?

[Huskie]

That's true, as what you described would be slander (especially if the person in question wouldn't have any proof of what he's claiming). And even with proof they could call the police because it's their private property.

On the internet however, the concept of private property is a bit different. Let's look at it this way (again, I'm fully aware this is not how it happens in reality, but from a strictly legal point of view that's how it should be): it's a forum, every post is considered a documented statement (and thus should not be able to have it's meaning edited without the consent of those the statement involves). If the forum owners decide to ban somebody, fine, they can remove all that person's posts from there (not edit them). But as long as said person is allowed in there, it should not be possible to delete their statements without their consent (as, again, they are seen by law as documents).

But of course, this is the internet, who the fuck cares about law...

[Ave]

In a perfect world Huskie we could all go to Microsofts homepage and post how rubbish Windows is and how they constantly release it full of bugs and security issues, but do you think that this will ever happen.. no

And the concept of property on the internet is no different, if i set up a forum i have every right to delete and edit whatever i desire, when i desire... nowhere does it state that what you post is forever set it stone until you are banned.

Bottom line im a realist... want to post things that slate a company, go to unofficial forums or expect to have your post deleted... never seen any different in any game ive played ever.

[Huskie]

Exactly, like I said, that would be from a strictly legal point of view and I know in truth everything goes different (which I've written numerous times in my posts). You basically just agreed with me, that in essence what they did is illegal, which is what I've been saying from my first post.

if i set up a forum i have every right to delete and edit whatever i desire

Like I wrote above, no, you don't have these rights. You can do it if you wish, since there's hardly ever any type of "internet patrol" to enforce the law, but it's not endorsed by law.

[Ave]

Well i beg to differ, i never once said what they did was illegal.


And the concept of property on the internet is no different, if i set up a forum i have every right to delete and edit whatever i desire, when i desire... nowhere does it state that what you post is forever set it stone until you are banned.

Its their forum, they can delete what the hell they like, when they like.
If you can find the legaly binding document that states that they cannot do this please post away.
(and i dont mean assumptions based on real life documents and theories applied in a roundabout way to forums)

Whether its morally right is another matter, and whether you agree with their decision is your choice, but they did nothing illegal at all. They did what any company would do who found something posted on their forum which they considered inflamatory, they deleted it...
I sometimes wonder if people have ever visited the official forums of other games, or indeed any official forum game or otherwise.

[Ave]

Ok you changed your post while i was posting.

Please post where it states that deleting someone elses post on a forum you own and control is illegal and i shall accept defeat on this issue.

EDIT

On the internet however, the concept of private property is a bit different. Let's look at it this way (again, I'm fully aware this is not how it happens in reality, but from a strictly legal point of view that's how it should be): it's a forum, every post is considered a documented statement (and thus should not be able to have it's meaning edited without the consent of those the statement involves).

There are an awful lot of assumptions going on in this statement and i doubt very much that any legal person would agree.
For a start you are forgetting you agree to their total control when you accept the Terms and conditions, and if you think those arent legally binding then how the hell is what you say legally binding either?

[Huskie]

Yes, you accept, but because you are forced to if you want to join. EULA's are not legally binding.

Very simple example to illustrate that.

Imagine that you love eating chinese food and feel like going to your nearest China-in-box franchise. Then once you get to it, you see a paper fixed to the front door, saying that since China-in-box is a chinese franchise, only Chinese law applies inside that property's boundaries. I think you'll agree with me, that something like that would be clearly illegal. And that's exactly what almost every company does with software/website EULAs.

About deleting posts being illegal, it's simply because posts are counted as documents, granted not as reliable as hand-written ones to be able to tell for sure it was that person who wrote it, but still documents. Another example: Do you think it would be within law if they simply edited everything in their forum to make them into praising comments about HG:L? Not only are they distorting other people's statements by forging documents, they'd also be doing misleading advertisement.

I wrote earlier and I'll repeat, law int he internet is something very blurry and hard to define due to it's difference to reality, all I'm writing is from theoretical and legal point of view.

[Lonethar]

You both need a trip to my apple thread. *passes them both an apple*

[Ave]

Thats a totally different arena, for a start its straight up impossible to impose laws from another country if you arent there.

The internet as you pointed out yourself is a totaly different beast.

I just did a bit of googling on the issue and it seems you are completely correct when it comes to public forums with no membership.
These to have EULAs but because your not required to read and accept it to post there then in theory the post remains your property and uneditable/deletable unless it is itself illegal in some way.

Official forums which require membership mean you have to agree to whatever terms they set out in their documentation, however ludicrous, in order to post.
So once youve done that you basically wave your ownership of your posts goodbye.
If they decide what you said in post X is inflamatory or in any way offense they have the right to delete but not edit it.
Editing it gets into murky legal territory as now both you and them own the post and any resulting legal action becomes messy.

But thats probably why they deleted the whole thing, editing it would have been illegal without his consent, deleting it outright isnt.

[harbinger]

Well I will explain my point of view...

On the forum, you are not a conqueror or invader. You are a guest.

A guest have some privilege. It also have some rules to follow.

You are free to disagree with your host. You can argue with him.
But call him "homo", slap his wife and spit in the coffee, and you wonder why they ask you to leave?

Plus it doesn't make the place more pleasant for everyone else. Not only the FSS staff.

Start being medieval and the host has every right to put an end to this...
If you are not agreeing with someone, you can post something civil and civilized.

Now it wouldn't be normal if a polite post was deleted. Which wasn't totally the case here (and the reason why it is here. In the first level of Hell. In the PoD. Muahahahaha)

[Huskie]

Thats a totally different arena, for a start its straight up impossible to impose laws from another country if you arent there.

The internet as you pointed out yourself is a totaly different beast.

Exactly, and because laws haven't been adjusted accordingly to this new dimension the internet imposes (mostly due to the enormous complexity of such a task), such EULA's remain at best in the "margins of law", for lack of a better expression.

I just did a bit of googling on the issue and it seems you are completely correct when it comes to public forums with no membership.
These to have EULAs but because your not required to read and accept it to post there then in theory the post remains your property and uneditable/deletable unless it is itself illegal in some way.

Official forums which require membership mean you have to agree to whatever terms they set out in their documentation, however ludicrous, in order to post.
So once youve done that you basically wave your ownership of your posts goodbye.
If they decide what you said in post X is inflamatory or in any way offense they have the right to delete but not edit it.
Editing it gets into murky legal territory as now both you and them own the post and any resulting legal action becomes messy.

But thats probably why they deleted the whole thing, editing it would have been illegal without his consent, deleting it outright isnt.

Interesting, could you pass me the link of where you found that info? I always thought there was no difference from public forums to those that restrict access to them.

[BryanM]

It was up there since mid November with nearly a hundred replies; if the OP and not the guy in the thread calling everyone else arrogant jackasses was the reason for the stealth delete, they took some sweet time with it.

The comments over there where people thought I was being mean confused me - certainly this reads like a love letter compared to some other posts? And certainly that the game wasn't core-content complete at ship was much more disrespectful, in comparison?

What disappointed me was that, also, no one ever brought up specific points they disagreed with. Just a vague "complete/mostly agree" or a simple "eh, I enjoy the game." And surprisingly only a few flames..

[Hannya]

Legal matters aside, while I think the general tone of his post was overly aggresive, I don't think it was offensive enaugh to warrant stealth delete (I mean, that's how most forums deal with spam/trolling, right? His post was neither), especially as it brought valid points. This leads me to believe his post got deleted because of content rather than tone.

Not like it's the first time I heard about excessive removal of critical posts on the official forums.

[Molehs_Mum]

...
What disappointed me was that, also, no one ever brought up specific points they disagreed with. Just a vague "complete/mostly agree" or a simple "eh, I enjoy the game." And surprisingly only a few flames..

Well, I for one enjoy the game....If you have that many things you feel are wrong with the game then the game you want isn't Hellgate. It is some other game that does fit within your desires. It'd be like me going to the main Starcraft forums and complaining that there aren't enough zombies, nazis and demons from the portal of hell. But what it really comes down to is that if you don't like it then don't play. I'm not discounting your opinions, merely that eventually the list gets so long that the game you wanted coudn't have possibly have been this one....

[Asuka Kazama]

@Harbinger & Ave: From a strictly legal point-of-view they shouldn't be allowed to remove complaints like that, since that forum is one of the two possible ways of making public, to all other customers and potential customers, one's dissatisfactions with their service (the other one would be publishing it in the press, but then since the game officially has customers overseas it would have to be some kind of worldwide press, which would be hardly affordable).

International software EULA's are usually pseudo-legal (and very frequently just plain illegal) protection of the company, which doesn't really mean anything since laws differ much between each user's country (and again, very frequently from the company's country itself).

The only half-plausible way of justifying that censorship would be if the USA doesn't have any legal customer-protection entity/laws (which I very much doubt is the case).


Nothing legal or illegal about it. It's their house, they can remove anything they want at their own discretion which they clearly state they can and will do. It's just like if you go to a sporting event with a sign, the arena where the sporting event is being held at can take the sign away from you if they don't like what it says.

[NapalmEnema]

This game is like being kicked in the junk with cleats on then kissed and held by a woman wearing dead frogs strapped to the backs of her legs so she's like awwww yeah when she's rubbing on your thighs and telling you how your mother hates you.

[Lonethar]

lol. I got that vibe today...minus the dead frogs...

[edujackass]

sadly enough i have to aggree on all your points :(

[Molehs_Mum]

This game is like being kicked in the junk with cleats on then kissed and held by a woman wearing dead frogs strapped to the backs of her legs so she's like awwww yeah when she's rubbing on your thighs and telling you how your mother hates you.

How exactly can you make that claim as you haven't played in weeks?

[backfir3]

FSS built their bed without screwing in all the nails and now it can't take enough weight.


Ask yourself this, if you went into McDonalds and started publicly announcing how they make their burgers from lips and assholes and everything the make is nasty unhealthy crap would they remove you from the restaurant... yes of course they would, cause its theirs.

Regardless of your justifications, this analogy isn't accurate: a forum is there to give voice to a body, a restaurant is not.

Regardless of the pedantic rantings above (I suppose I should emote before I'm attacked :p) the tone of the piece in the OP in no way warrants a deletion. Surely they realize (if this was indeed the case) that this kind of aggressive moderating will only decrease their already weakening reputation?

Game has great concept. Company has excellent rep. Game is Hyped. Game is launched early. Game isn't all it could have been...

What do they expect the reaction will be?

[harbinger]

What do they expect the reaction will be?
Mature and responsible.

http://picturebook.chattablogs.com/archives/images/06_02_11.jpg

[Ave]

Regardless of your justifications, this analogy isn't accurate: a forum is there to give voice to a body, a restaurant is not.


Analogies rarely do bear close examination, i was using it as an extreme example to illustrate a point.

Bottom line is this, its their forum, if they felt the post or resulting mass of reply posts was inflamatory they have every right to delete it, if you dont like how they do things, dont visit their forum... simple really dont see what all the fuss is about.

[BryanM]

"Here is a $50 turd sandwich."

"Thank you sir you are so kind."

[backfir3]

"Here is a $50 turd sandwich."

"Thank you sir you are so kind."

I suppose the nutritional value of a turd is entirely subjective...

[Molehs_Mum]

Here is what I find the most amuzing about all you people that piss and moan: If you had simply waited a month after the release and read the forums and saw what people were saying then you wouldn't have bought the game and you would be here whining about it.

So you fucked yourselves by not making an informed purchase...get over it, learn something from this experience and never buy a game the day it's released and expect perfection...But what do I know I actually like the game and look forward to what the future holds for HGL....

[backfir3]

Here is what I find the most amuzing about all you people that piss and moan: If you had simply waited a month after the release and read the forums and saw what people were saying then you wouldn't have bought the game and you would be here whining about it.

So you fucked yourselves by not making an informed purchase...get over it, learn something from this experience and never buy a game the day it's released and expect perfection...But what do I know I actually like the game and look forward to what the future holds for HGL....

Well - I can assure you - I love the core of this game and everything it has potential to become. However, the hype surrounding this title and the poor launch were always going to produce this kind of response. People are passionate about games, it's what lends drive and ambition to those creating them in the first place.

People care, let them express that.

And before you riposte, moaning abut moaning isn't really a valuable expression.

[Lonethar]

You have my agreement. Backfir3...you make a couple good posts. Who would be happy buying a turd sandwich? And impulse buying of Hellgate London instead of careful examination of the facts is my style of shopping. Doesnt mean I deserve a shoddy game because of it.

[Ave]

And before you riposte, moaning abut moaning isn't really a valuable expression.

Neither is moaning about moaning about moaning ;)

[Lonethar]

Alright! ENOUGH! TO MY APPLE THREAD FOR THE BOTH OF YOU!

[backfir3]

Neither is moaning about moaning about moaning ;)

I might be worried if I'd actually been moaning ;)

[Molehs_Mum]

...Doesnt mean I deserve a shoddy game because of it.

Actually in todays market, that is exactly what you should expect....

[Lonethar]

I absolutely cannot argue with that. Its a fact of life. I dont think we as customers should support this crap....

[Molehs_Mum]

Did any of you buy into the hype that was Dark Messiah? Great demo, awesome graphics, $50 ... and only 9-12 hours aof gameplay and no replayability and an MP that was total shit ...thank god I waited on that one and ended up getting it free with my video card....

Point being is either be happy with impulse buys or be smart and wait...

[The Fury]

So they think they can silence me with their shifty EULA eh? let's see how the official Hellgate forums like this beast!

Subject: Hey Bill Roper...

Eat a dick!

Disclaimer: Any attempt to modify this post, or remove it in it's entirety from these forums is in direct violation of the universal human rights code section 17, paragraph 9. You will also be subject to whiny yuppies from Berkley and, or Umass parading into your lobby wearing silly ass robes and giant beads chanting about your injustice and setting fire to themselves. I will also write a negative review about this stupid game on gamefaqs, kill your dog, seduce your lovely wife into having a steamy affair with me, and tell all of the impressionable 12 year olds I know not to buy this game because it's ran by fascists.

[Huskie]

First you gotta teach them what fascists are, lol...


Btw, forgive my ignorance, but were you taking a dig at me with that post? lol :D

[Sol Invictus]

I think that you could have put your point across in a much more positive manner than the approach you took. That said, however, some of the points you made are certainly valid and I think we can all agree that while Hellgate: London is a great game, there's certainly room for improvement.

[backfir3]

I think we can all agree that while Hellgate: London is a great game, there's certainly room for improvement.

Sorry to split hairs, but I think you'll find the majority consider the game to be merely decent with the potential to be great.

If FSS don't live up to the already stretched expectation within the next few content patches, I'm fairly certain we'll see a mass exodus from the game.

[The Fury]

First you gotta teach them what fascists are, lol...


Btw, forgive my ignorance, but were you taking a dig at me with that post? lol :D

Not all it was just satire on the situation in general, I agreed with more of the points your brought up than I didn't but I am strongly against censorship so I'm biased.

Anywho I think what damned the OP's thread was that it was too much. It did raise several valid points and I do share the same thoughts on monster variation, boss complexity, and monster behavior as the OP (in that HG:L is too simplistic in this regard) but the post just exposed far too many flaws for it's own good. I can kind of see where the FSS moderation team was coming from when they chose to snuff it, if you try and put yourself in the mindset of an FSS mod it makes sense. The official forums get a lot of traffic, a lot of people probably saw that thread, some of these people didn't think the problems in the thread were really a problem, maybe they just didn't notice, maybe they just didn't care. Yet when it's all thrown in their face like that, they open their eyes, they start finding these problems for themselves and start looking for new problems. So it poses a snowball effect of sorts.

Also while the OPs intent could have been constructive in nature it's only a matter of time before the sheep that infest the official (be they fan boys, be they bashers) infect the thread with their venom. So FSS could check the thread every day to see if anyone was being an asshole, or they could just cut it off at it's source and spend their time elsewhere.

[Molehs_Mum]

....

Also while the OPs intent could have been constructive in nature....

I think a big flaw in the OPs intent was the not-so-suble "I'm being a complete asshole but I'm masking it with what I consider to be wit." Had he actually formualted it with out all of the digs and nasty remarks it may have been a foundation for something good. But instead it didn't make it past the 'complete asshat' filter and was removed.

[BryanM]

I have to agree with The Fury - when all the basic fundamental expectations are laid out like that it really doesn't make them look like they know what they're doing.

I have to agree with the conclusion with the Somethingawful review: "Yes we really are professional game developers!"

[Lonethar]

Quote: 'complete asshat' filter ...I love it! May I use it in the future?

[Molehs_Mum]

Quote: 'complete asshat' filter ...I love it! May I use it in the future?

Sure, as long as I get full credit for each reference and a $0.05 for each usage...we can work out the paypal thing if you'd like, or you can use it under a subscription service in which you can pay me monthly and use it as often as you like for that month....

[BryanM]

Hey calling people dicks and assholes constantly everywhere across the internet is maybe a bit more assholish than actually talking about issues and thinking about things. I'm sorry that you're so angry at life and desperately lonely you need to validate yourself like this, but it isn't my place to give you hugs.

Just a thought.

A real, actual, human thought.

[Molehs_Mum]

Hey calling people dicks and assholes constantly everywhere across the internet is maybe a bit more assholish than actually talking about issues and thinking about things.

Just a thought.

A real, actual, human thought.


Then how about you post a post to the devs that is 'nice' and 'helpful' instead of acting like some 15 year old that thinks he's being cute by being a dick and an asshole and then expecting people to take him seriously?

You are just asking for flames/deletion/trouble with your style of posting. you want to be taken seriously then pretnd you are writing that letter to your boss or a teacher who can decide your 'fate' and then you might write somethign that will be taken with a bit more considertaion.

Do you really think that the title of "Hey here are all your design failures again" is going to invoke a feeling of "Hey, you know this kid might be right we should rush this to the desk of Bill roper right now...."? Get real. Until you learn to form a thought without acting like an arrogant little prick no one at FSS would take you seriously.

But what do I know....

[Lonethar]

Can I "TEST FIRE" it a couple times first? Ill still give you the credit...it just want to see if it gets the reaction Im looking for first...

[Molehs_Mum]

Can I "TEST FIRE" it a couple times first? Ill still give you the credit...it just want to see if it gets the reaction Im looking for first...

Sure, every one of my quotes comes with a free 1 and 1/2 test uses.

[Lonethar]

Sweet work...

[Lonethar]

I have a suspicion...a very small one...that they might have read ONE of my posts. I have about 100 dealing with the inadequacies of SP in HGL. I also think too highly of myself too...so...maybe they didnt. I sure know nothing they have released by ways of information about the release of the next patch or indeed ANY information at all, so if they have read my posts they sure havent acted to address any of my issues.

Im so full of myself I think that they should just "HOP TO" and do as I say. Does that make me a "SPOILED LITTLE PRINCESS"?

[Huskie]

Yes... and a nooblet! :D

[Asuka Kazama]

Hey calling people dicks and assholes constantly everywhere across the internet is maybe a bit more assholish than actually talking about issues and thinking about things. I'm sorry that you're so angry at life and desperately lonely you need to validate yourself like this, but it isn't my place to give you hugs.

Just a thought.

A real, actual, human thought.


It's how you present your issues. If you want to be taken with even a shred of seriousness you need to present your issues in a constructive and non confrontational fashion. It's that simple. Ping0 has claimed that they don't care what you have to say as long as it's done in a constructive fashion be it good or bad. Now if you folks can't play nice it'll be the end of this thread.

[Lonethar]

I just wonder what the game would be like if I had the whip in my hand over there. Put my programmer friends into the lead programming roles. Who knows. I have to say that my frustration comes not really from the bugs or glitches, but comes from active programmers in the industry who keep me informed on what their work entails and what goes into these games. Fanbois want to make excuses for its many ills, but there is some real evidence that supports one thing. Laziness.

From the tilesets, AI....ooh this one is looked on as quite a joke by them. One of my friends is an AI developer. The terrible storyline, the worse NPC's, the repetitive quests, these werent the results of a game "PUSHED OUT THE DOOR" And while I could continue, I will stop here. I just wonder how many people fail to understand that the problems are a result of laziness by the game's developers, and nothing else. These same friends of mine were big MPers with LoD and played with me. Its their insight into the gaming world that fuels my understanding of the design and developement of HGL.

A few good points have been brought to my attention...with all I have previously stated in this post. D2 was NOT very fun until the fixes, and the release of LoD. Its why I am still here. I have faith that the next fixes will make this game into something closer to its potential. The simple fact is that I want to believe in this venture, as tricky as that is becoming. My faith has been severely shaken...please start listening to your fans. Too many of us are at the limits of our patience.

[BryanM]

Apparently it's now no longer socially tolerable to deride mediocrity. I find it pathetic someone's emotional state is dependent on the illusion that a video game is perfect in every possible way, and that personal ad hominem attacks are even comparable to (mostly objective) opinions.

Lock it, kill it, whatever. I cease to have interest or find value in the discourse of such a hollow, empty venture.

[Sp3tSnAz]

Fanbois want to make excuses for its many ills, but there is some real evidence that supports one thing. Laziness.

See, while you might keep branding people who defend the game as fanbois (which I disagree with, as just because someone has a difference of opinion, branding them a name isn't the most mature thing to do...), I don't think you can make a statement like that without any assumptions... so I guess I'll be a "fanboi" here and give another view of the possible situation...

While you do say that your programmer friends work at EA, do you also compare the teams they work with, the amount of capital behind them, their investors and a lot of other factors into it?

While individuals may be lazy or not, they are not the ones who make a game good or bad. It's the overall combination of basic business principles and decisions that determine a lot of this. While an established business can easily hire a great managerial team as well as a large staff full of people who know how to work together, priorotise things and have enough capital for it all, think of how FSS started up...

They talk on their making off DVD that at first they worked with a very small team from one of the developers houses, using one of the house rooms as an office of sorts. A lot of their team is new to them (it's not all D2 people) and a there is clearly not a very strong managerial team behind them.

This means it is a lot easier to overlook many things and priorotise things incorrectly, so once release time looms on you and your capital starts to run out you really don't have a choice of how the game comes out...

If FSS was already well established and released HGL in the state it was done in, I would probably be on your side, but as it is, with a small start up company with people who are not made of money, I don't think that calling them "lazy" is doing anyone any justice...

[Lonethar]

I might agree with you if these were words and descriptions that were my own. They absolutlely were not. If people directly involved in the exact same field are expressing their opinions based not on opinion, but on a direct examination of the code and finished product, then I give them the respect that is due their experience.

Again, direct examination and NOT opinion got them to that conclusion.

[Mercurio]

I agree with Sp3tSnAz and vote for bad management :P

I think even the obvious design flaws (even the technical ones) are related to bad management.

[Molehs_Mum]

I blame my mother for bad managment...

[Sp3tSnAz]

I might agree with you if these were words and descriptions that were my own. They absolutlely were not. If people directly involved in the exact same field are expressing their opinions based not on opinion, but on a direct examination of the code and finished product, then I give them the respect that is due their experience.

Again, direct examination and NOT opinion got them to that conclusion.

Yes, but thing is, does their company compare to that of FSS?

Because you can't look at individuals but have to look at other factors as a whole when you see a product that a business makes...

Who is to say that the people from D2 made all the good stuff, and some new programmer guy they hired fucked everything else up? Does that make FSS lazy or does that just fall down to an inexperienced new guy, who couldn't take the pressure of a quick release?

You can't just pick one small thing and judge the entire game on that is what Im saying, and as I don't know your programmer friends, I can't judge that their business environment is directly comparable to that of a brand new company that started off in someone's house essentially...

[Sp3tSnAz]

I agree with Sp3tSnAz and vote for bad management :P

I think even the oblivious design flaws (even the technical ones) are related to bad management.

Thing is, that's the stance I have always took with FSS...

They are a talanted bunch of individuals, however they need someone with better business sense (like people at Blizzard were at the time) to lead them...

While in a perfect world with unlimited time and money they could each make a part of the game that would fit together for something mind blowing, with limited cash, lack of time, a small team many of whom are new and a variety of other factors, if someone was there to provide them with good time management and priorotising of tasks I think they could have done a lot better...

In fact I would go as far as to say that EA if it managed rather than just published could have given them a better release than what they had...

----

Things like design flaws fall to the fact that imo there was no one in place to say which decision was the correct one, and when you have a team of people brain storming and some working on their own things while working on like 20 other things at the same time, it kind of makes it hard for every one of those decisions to be correct... for that you need a central decision maker, lots of time and lots of money...

[Lonethar]

Oh..there were MANY ingredients in this mix. And I think thats what is understood.. Sp3tSnAz makes a good point. It wasnt just too much flour or too many eggs...there were a few other ingredients involved here.

Im hopeful they will get the recipe right and we can ALL have some tasty cake. This coming from a girl who CANNOT bake...

[Molehs_Mum]

"THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!"

[Lonethar]

One day Ill discover what that means.....one day...if Im good...

[Molehs_Mum]

One day Ill discover what that means.....one day...if Im good...

My most recent interaction with that phrase was with the 'game' Portal, by the people that made HL2....

[Lonethar]

But..what does it mean?

[The Fury]

If they put as much effort into putting their editorials/reviews together as I do tearing their editorials/reviews apart for misinformation, ignorance, and stupidity I wouldn't have any ammunition. If they were able to convince me that they actually played the game for more than 4 hours, I'd ease up a little. I don't think Hellgate is perfect, I never have, I never will, it's a flawed game, but it is a fun flawed game, and over time I'm hoping it becomes a less flawed and more fun game.

Fact of the matter is if you are going to make an attempt bash a medicore game in a mediocre fashion you deserve to have your complete lack of effort exploited. If you are going to dismantle something and call it "the worst" go for broke, or go the fuck home. This "It's the worst most overhyped game of 2007, but it's not that bad, I mean it's kind of cool, but it kind of sucks, and it's neat but not really" shit you see in almost every review/editorial has got to go, the press needs to stop being spineless pricks, or maybe they are waiting for that fat check from FSS to come in so they can start putting up the "Oh my bad, this game is actually awesome" pieces.

[Asuka Kazama]

In this case, IGN hit the nail on the head:

Closing Comments
At the end of the day Hellgate: London delivers an experience that is fun for a few hours but quickly grows repetitive. The stat-driven combat takes the player one step away from the action and the modular levels and peripheral nature of the story keeps players from investing in the world. Balanced against that are levels that are virtually teeming with enemies and a loot and upgrade system that gives you a real sense of progress every minute that you play. Your own enjoyment of Hellgate will naturally depend on your tolerance for the repetitious levels and your overall desire to find the perfect combination of skills and items that will allow you to take on the toughest of the game's challenges with ease. Unfortunately for Hellgate, our tolerance and desire levels just aren't what they used to be.

[Lonethar]

Very well put. Lets hope the changes smack all doubters (including me) flat on our collective asses. Come on! Show me how good the game CAN be! Listen to your fans, make the necessary changes...win our confidence back!

[Pernicious]

I agree with the fact that the OP should have put it forth in a different fashion. You put it forth as if you're the expert and FSS are amateurs. And the way you write is questionable, seemingly using sophisticated language frequently, then ending every complaint with phrases such as "complete suck" and "utter fail". A rhetorical question every other sentence also adds to the tone that comes off your review of you being more knowledgeable in the field of game development than the developers. Complaining about things that don't affect your gameplay experience such as the presentation of the website shows that you are looking too deep for things to scrutinize.

While I agree with many of your points (particularly tilesets, variety, AI, and well, most things (I've voiced my contempt elsewhere)), I can see why it was removed from the site. It's less constructive criticism and more degradation of the abilities of the developer.

[The Fury]

In this case, IGN hit the nail on the head:

Closing Comments
At the end of the day Hellgate: London delivers an experience that is fun for a few hours but quickly grows repetitive. The stat-driven combat takes the player one step away from the action and the modular levels and peripheral nature of the story keeps players from investing in the world. Balanced against that are levels that are virtually teeming with enemies and a loot and upgrade system that gives you a real sense of progress every minute that you play. Your own enjoyment of Hellgate will naturally depend on your tolerance for the repetitious levels and your overall desire to find the perfect combination of skills and items that will allow you to take on the toughest of the game's challenges with ease. Unfortunately for Hellgate, our tolerance and desire levels just aren't what they used to be.

This is what I'm talking about, very accurate, objective and firm. They aren't making shit up, they aren't attempting to be edgy for the sake of being edgy, or create pointless controversey. Very well done, this seems to be the tone of every review or review bit that didn't piss me off.

[edujackass]

im saving the first post to a word document in case anybody atacks me with fanboism again il one hit ko them with that huge piece of hard information.

[Molehs_Mum]

im saving the first post to a word document in case anybody atacks me with fanboism again il one hit ko them with that huge piece of hard information.

Thus making yourself look as much of a idiot as the OP....well played....

[Ave]

im saving the first post to a word document in case anybody atacks me with fanboism again il one hit ko them with that huge piece of hard information.

My own growing frustration with the game is detailed in another thread, but to parrot out someone elses opinion as your own is not exactly 'hard information' is it...

[Huskie]

Thus making yourself look as much of a idiot as the OP....well played....

The real question is: would that be bad, or actually good for his reputation?

[TSS]

egad! a long and sensible discussion of 4 pages with posts longer then 2 sentances and proper, valid arguments. i was looking for the internet but i guess i took a wrong turn at Albuquerque *cough*.

honestly the complete discussion around hellgate and it's "suckyness", be it bad or not so bad, has to be one of the biggest i've seen as long as i've been online. while it's quite simple. a lack of backbone lead the game to it's current state, whatever that state might be. if the game wasn't ready for release when it was released, nobody had the backbone to say "no, we need more time". if there was no way, no way in hell that they could've gotten more time, then somebody lacked the backbone to cut features early on and focus on the important parts (scrapping hell ok, but at the *last* minute?).

take for instance DX10. i've seen the comparison reviews both the good and the bad and it's basically worthless. you get a tiny bit nicer visuals against worser performance (REMEMBER WHERE TALKING RELEASE HERE! sorry for the caps but people have a tendancy to filter out all the good parts and quote the one part of the post that was slightly less politically correct) but all the while, people have worked on getting it right. now it runs faster, according to what i heard a while back, but all that time spend getting something working that has almost no value... even if 1 guy did all that work he shoulda spent his time working on the skill tree's but, like i said, a lack of backbone to cut that "feature" at the beginning.

that's only how though, not why. i've worked with programmers before, a very good friend of the family is a good and respected programmer. also working as a sysop for a while brought me in toutch with the programmers working professionally, maybe not on game engines but still on code. what i recognise most about this game and why it went wrong, is something that is very common throughout the IT sector, atleast here: somebody got feature crazy. we all know somebody who buys the latest gadgets disregarding their functions, price and longevity. programmers also like to add new functionalities to their programs. after all that's what they do. this doesn't go well with a deadline. heck even we know it, when you are playing hellgate of D2 or any RPG and you have to go do something else like take out the trash the first thought you'll have is "right after i do this quest/get this level". after all seeing that ding just makes you feel better and gives you a sense of having accomplished something, the same feeling a programmer gets from adding new functionalities.

the problems are problems in getting something to work. everybody in the IT business underestimates the time they need to get something working, simply because they might get it working "better" with a little more time. in the end when time caught up there where just too many features being worked on and the person who had to "make the cut", just failed.

if you have to blame anything for the games state, blame the dev's for being human, because that's what happened. humans. however i don't mind the rough treatment they've gotten so far, when you hype a game you can't deliver on thats just what happens, because the people who are dissapointed are people as well. and, it'll help them sort out their priority's. people will whine about everything because they like to complain, it's just what they whine hardest about that you need to fix first. ignore but not completly ignore, yknow?.

oh and since i'm sluggish to reply, for future replys: my pure personal un-politically correct opinion is that the designers should've had more creativity with the enviroments, the man in charge (was it bill roper?) dropped the ball the hardest and the graphical engine is shit. thick shit through a funnel. on the same PC that runs crysis fluently on medium (save for a few drops to 15 fps) i've seen 3SPF on some parts in HGL. yes, that *does* mean 3 seconds per frame. even fear wasn't that bad when it was released, and that was one hell of an inefficient engine. not to mention serious sam 2 can create just as many monsters on screen looking even better with 3 times higher framerates, it *can* be done. and cmon, LAG IN SINGLE PLAYER?!?! (AKA the glitching ravagers). fuck that.

take the top part for the discussion, the last part in case of mindless flames. splitting it up might make it easyer to get my point across :P

[Ave]

Just to pick up on a point you made about them scrapping Hell at the last minute.

I think this is symbolic of why the game has missed the mark in many peoples eyes.
They had it working according to many testers then just removed it, why?

My theory is that not long before release they discovered massive balance issues with it and also realised that to justify its inclusion it would need alot more interesting monsters than the ones already in the game.
(Imagine fighting imps/bladeslayers/zombies for 100 levels instead of just 50)
So rather than take more time adding more mobs and making the items scale properly (EG Higher level uniques) they just cut the whole thing out and added in Elite mode which is the laziest worst game idea ever IMO.
Its just exactly the same as normal mode but with some more boss and unique mobs and the monsters have more hits, thats it basically. Must have taken all of 2 days to implement that whole mode... its lazy and in truth above all else (most of which i can forgive) the lack of hell mode and the inclusion of elite is what i hate most about HG:L.

In D2 normal mode was pointless, you rushed through it to get to NM and learn the game. NM was where the game started properly and then Hell was something which took time to complete and was genuinely difficult in places (anyone remember Unique hell level bone doll bosses.....urgh they were nasty, or taking on the council in Act3 on Hell)
There is nothing like that in HGL aside from techsmiths brain maybe.

[Sp3tSnAz]

They had it working according to many testers then just removed it, why?

They did?

In both Alpha and Beta (even to the extended full version game players) the cap was 50 and was limited to nightmare... not sure which testers got to try out Hell mode or if it was working or not, but afaik other than maybe their internal team none of the testers got to try it out...

[Ave]

Ah ok maybe im wrong about people testing it, but thats a moot point, the rest of my post is still valid.
They removed it at the final hurdle before Alpha/Beta testing, why? well refer to my above post for my opinion on that... as i said a combination of time issues and then a less than satisfactory solution in the form of Elite mode.

[Sp3tSnAz]

Other thing is, we don't actually know what they intended of Hell mode or whatever either way...

While yes, we can assume that this is what happened, and it's not that they simply fucked up along the way with some numbers and actually made the monsters too tough (although they said many times on the boards that the level of difficulty was intentional) we have not actually got any confirmation on whether hell mode was meant to be a thing put in at all...

The only person ever talking of Hell mode was OnyxAbyss on these forums, and every time he did, someone corrected him saying that it's actually an assumption...

Who is to say that what they intended is not to make it that difficult with no hell mode, then 2 months down the track give hell mode to subs only and make it so that non subs have to grind while subs get the harder areas so they can level faster as was intended when they first announced the pay model and told us that the subs would have harder areas...

Not necessarily arguing with you that FSS didn't miss out parts of the game, but I do feel like blaming them for this particular reason with no backup from any of us kind of just adds to more venting frustration rather than being an actual valid point, because imo it was just as likely the scenario I described with the mode being a later perk for subs which I personally would have been happy with...

[Ave]

I have no doubt that Hell mode will be added later for subs, ive said that all along. It doesnt take Einstein to work out they will at some point, why make nightmare mode otherwise (which itself is totally ripped from D2 if you dont have Hell)
And im sure i read somewhere that Hell mode was intended to be included, and we know that elite mode wasn't planned from the begining as it was only announced late on.

To me elite mode is a lazy solution to a problem which they didnt have time to sort out. Dont get me wrong thats understandable, its their first game, but if they just admitted they made mistakes and communicated more as to where the game is going it would help alot.
I would suggest them dropping subs and making the whole game FTP for a month or two as an apology or making Stonehenge free for all, but they have backed themselves into a corner on that with the founders who they can never reinburse.

[lockwoodx]

I agree with Sp3tSnAz and vote for bad management :P

I think even the obvious design flaws (even the technical ones) are related to bad management.

Yep and /agree. Policy dictates everything in the IT world.