So, that it?

[Philozophizerr]

Hellgate as a whole did not disappoint me, the core was enjoyable, the classes are unique, and the setting is something new. But while most game include at least 2 or 3 forms of melee combat, 1 handed swords and axes, and 2 handed swords and axes. Yet Hellgate lacks that. It appeals to the people who can't get enough of Duel Wielding, which, in my opinion, is as overrated as Halo.

Why, Flagship, why didn't you at least throw in a 2 handed sword? What's with the total lack of melee weapons? Melee has a lot of potential that never entirely reaped, there is only one way to shoot a man, but there are a hundred ways to slash a man.

[Asuka Kazama]

2handed sword is rumored to be another class but that's all it is at the moment, a rumor.

[Darksaber]

Im sure it'll come out as on-going content :) Or as an expansion

[Tsuyu]

Which means you better cram a lot o' cash up FSS tail pipe to get your hands on one.

[Philozophizerr]

Exactly. I'll wait for an expansion - if there is one.

[Tsuyu]

No-no-no. You have to subscribe - pay FFS a fee to get things that should've been in the game from the start.

[The Fury]

No-no-no. You have to subscribe - pay FFS a fee to get things that should've been in the game from the start.

That's a rather bold assumption, I don't ever remember reading anything saying they promised a cube, a Stonhenge level, or two handed swords in the retail package. If FSS had to include everything that everyone thought was just "common sense" this game wouldn't have come out until the day before Hellgate happened IRL in 2020 whatever.

Besides you can kill demons with a cricket bat! That's about the most awesome thing ever in my book. My guardian is still lugging around a cricket bat I've lovingly upgraded since I got it at level 3, weapon variety be damned!

[HerrStoy]

No-no-no. You have to subscribe - pay FFS a fee to get things that should've been in the game from the start.

Yes. Yes, you make a game and put everything in there to begin with. Everything that everyone wants. Absolutely everything that anyone can think of. So then later on you have absolutely nothing to offer. Because everything is already in the game. It's the perfect game. It has everything. Might as well just stop doing anything then. I mean FSS makes the perfect game, we play it and it's the perfect game so why play anything else. They can just shut down everything and let us play it. Go bankrupt. This is a good idea. Everything should have been in the game to begin with. What the hell, FSS. I feel so robbed.

[backfir3]

there is only one way to shoot a man

What a silly thing to say, take an a MM through the game before you say that again please :)

-

We knew what we were buying, so the sarcastic comment about subs holds no weight. However: one of the reasons this game was considered a massive disappointment was it's lack of content.

If FSS had taken more time, or spent the time previously more wisely (w/e it was..) then I've little doubt that all the updates we're seeing now would have been a part of final retail. Even extras like Axes and Broadswords would probably have made the cut.

I don't mind paying my sub, but it really does feel like I'm paying for pre-release dev time rather than extra content.

[HerrStoy]

Right now you are paying for dev time (and some stash space). But they're on schedule and they've delivered everything they promised when it comes to patching and extra content. They're still not past their three month limit on expansion sized content.

What made launch suck was the bugs and the lack of player features. A lot of that has been fixed now with the party finder and the better chat, and still has a way to go with the buddy system and actual game economy. They're in a bit of a corner when it comes to how they deal with players though. They have to give the people playing enough to make them content with playing the game and maybe subbing some day, at the same time as they have to give the people subbing enough to make it worth the cash.

Now, people always want shit for free. And for some strange reason they feel they always deserve more. It's never enough. FSS has budged on this, giving people a lot more character slots. This was only right, but it takes some of the air out of subscription benefit bragging, which was already pretty flat in the first place.

If you choose to pay you realize that you don't get "enough" for actually paying which also seems to make most people unhappy even though FSS didn't really promise them anything more. So how about taking some time and think about what you've been promised and what is actually realistic and unrealistic when it comes to what we demand from them? Be objective. They have to make money and they have to make the game good. I'm sure they're a lot more stressed out about it than we are.

[Ave]

Agree almost 100% with HerrStoy he speaks the truth :cool:

Only thing ill add is this, i pay like £6.99 a month for my sub, true as yet i dont get much more than non-subs (though that will change with stonehenge) But how i look at is like this.

This is one of my leisure activities all of which i must pay for. I spend considerably less doing this than when i go out somewhere irl and get a lot more time for cash.
I play this game most days for an hour or two at least and for that time i think £6.99 is perfectly reasonable. It would just buy me about 6 beers and it lasts a hell of a lot longer.

[Asuka Kazama]

One thing FSS did market prior and post launch was 3 classes per faction and 3 factions which leads me to believe they had planned 3 classes and decided to keep 1 class in each of the 3 factions for later subscriber content mega patches.

[lockwoodx]

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/6716/9458f0923e61fu7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

When you hit the end of the game.... it's just a loot grind, in the same 3 tile sets.

[the_wolf]

Better than Transformers the Game or Spiderman 3 the Game though.

[lockwoodx]

Better than Transformers the Game or Spiderman 3 the Game though.

Now this game is the best!!

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/8500/11913090421191274926004zk4.gif (http://imageshack.us)

[Tsuyu]

That's a rather bold assumption, I don't ever remember reading anything saying they promised a cube, a Stonhenge level, or two handed swords in the retail package. If FSS had to include everything that everyone thought was just "common sense" this game wouldn't have come out until the day before Hellgate happened IRL in 2020 whatever.

Besides you can kill demons with a cricket bat! That's about the most awesome thing ever in my book. My guardian is still lugging around a cricket bat I've lovingly upgraded since I got it at level 3, weapon variety be damned!

I'm just saying charging people extra for two-handed swords by making it a sub only feature is stupid.

Something that basic shouldn't be a feature, it should be in the core of the game or not at all.

[lockwoodx]

I'm just saying charging people extra for two-handed swords by making it a sub only feature is stupid.

Something that basic shouldn't be a feature, it should be in the core of the game or not at all.

You can thank electronic arts and xbox live for convincing console tards that microtransactions are ok along with in game advertising and other stupid shit.

[Scapes]

The reason that two-handed melee items (barring the Hunter bladesaw) aren't in the game is because there aren't two-handed melee animations at this time.

As for the rumors of a two-handed melee Templar class, they are just rumors. The name Crusader is a rumor I inadvertently started about a year ago.
-- Scapes

[The Fury]

Well even if it does come to pass and a new class is put in that makes use of a weapon class that wasn't in the game at launch, I fail to see how this is a bad thing, or that it is proof positive that it was cut out at release for the sole purpose of separating fools from their money. The Assassin in Diablo 2 used claws, the Assassin in Guild Wars, the Death Knight in WoW will use rune swords or some shit like that. If you wanted to use those particular classes and weapons you had to pay in those games as well. So it's not like it's a new practice.

I guess the point I am trying to make is unless someone here has a design document of some sort, it's pointless to accuse FSS of short changing people on features. Even if this is true, I'm not pissed off, in fact I would commend FSS on that as a business move, because I'd do the same thing if I was facing a similar set of circumstances, and honestly I think most developers would. It might not seem entirely ethical, but FSS is a business not a charity and if they want to be profitable and continue to provide HG:L as a service it's in their best interest to do so.

[Huskie]

As for the rumors of a two-handed melee Templar class, they are just rumors. The name Crusader is a rumor I inadvertently started about a year ago.
-- Scapes

The third templar class is called "Exemplar".

(P.S.: Not starting a rumour. You can find that out by messing around with the game's memory a bit)

[...]or that it is proof positive that it was cut out at release for the sole purpose of separating fools from their money.

Actually, like I mentioned above, there are vestiges of the third classes hidden in the game already, I think they only haven't released it from the very beggining due to the hurry to launch it.

[The Fury]

The third templar class is called "Exemplar".

(P.S.: Not starting a rumour. You can find that out by messing around with the game's memory a bit)



Actually, like I mentioned above, there are vestiges of the third classes hidden in the game already, I think they only haven't released it from the very beggining due to the hurry to launch it.

That's a possibility, but then again it is also common practice in MMOs to put place holders and things of that ilk into the game long before the official update comes to make them a reality. FSS has a schedule for these sorts of things, all MMO companies do. I'm not really sure what's there, but I don't doubt there are traces of things that should have supposedly been in the game. Take for instance the Caverns of Time in WoW, you could explore the actual instance itself pretty much since release, but it wasn't actually turned into a full fledged zone until nearly a year and a half later, same thing with Mt. Hyjal, both of those particular zones are central to Warcraft lore so you could make arguments that they were chopped due to time constraints at release, or they could have been part of the grand design scheme.

Is it possible there should have been 9 classes at release? sure

Is it possible that they are merely place holders for future content updates, and that's all they were intended to be? that works too

Yet both of these views are just speculation, and even if FSS confirms either one, there are those who will consider it a lie, there are those who will consider it truth, in the end it's obviously relative.

[Huskie]

I understand what you're saying I'm just stating some facts. I can also understand your way of seeing things (your signature gives it away :) ).

But again, just stating what I know: the vestiges of third classes are such superfluous things, that they'd hardly even have a purpose just as placeholders. I'm talking about item modifiers. Why even let there be a modifier that gives +1 to all Metamorph skills, but no modifiers that give +1 to each individual skill, and remove it from the item generator? From a logical point of view, it wouldn't make any sense to leave it there as placeholder if they're going to have to add all other Metamorph specific modifiers anyway.

IMO, and knowing you'd probably make some remark saying it's doesn't mean it's the cold hard truth just because I think so, I'll say that from my very own personal experience, I can tell that programmers are usually very lazy guys, who probably either forgot those few vestiges in there, or let them there on purpose thinking that no one would ever find them.

[Asuka Kazama]

Well new classes are claimed to be sub only. It's just a matter of whether it's 3, 6 or 9 or 12 months before any new classes are implemented.

[The Fury]

I understand what you're saying I'm just stating some facts. I can also understand your way of seeing things (your signature gives it away :) ).

But again, just stating what I know: the vestiges of third classes are such superfluous things, that they'd hardly even have a purpose just as placeholders. I'm talking about item modifiers. Why even let there be a modifier that gives +1 to all Metamorph skills, but no modifiers that give +1 to each individual skill, and remove it from the item generator? From a logical point of view, it wouldn't make any sense to leave it there as placeholder if they're going to have to add all other Metamorph specific modifiers anyway.

IMO, and knowing you'd probably make some remark saying it's doesn't mean it's the cold hard truth just because I think so, I'll say that from my very own personal experience, I can tell that programmers are usually very lazy guys, who probably either forgot those few vestiges in there, or let them there on purpose thinking that no one would ever find them.

Oh I'm not really disagreeing with you here, I know programmers are lazy as all hell. A friend of mine works on the SWG development team and he's told me on numerous occasion that they are just now getting in to putting in things that they had planned to implement years ago. In fact I believe your assumption in all probability is correct to an extent. It's just my nature to play the devil's advocate being a philosophy major and all ;)

[The Dude]

All I want to know is why bullshit us with amazing videos like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaf5RwAjnwM) and then hand us something that's disappointing. I work in retail and my manager has this mantra of "Under-promise and over-deliver". I always tell the customers that their orders will take a week longer than they really do, that way if there IS a major fuck-up they won't come into the store and yell at us. And when it comes quicker than they expect they're always happy.

Now, when I saw that video I imagined Doom 3 with swords. All the things I love about Diablo with a FPS twist. Ravagers on the walls, zombies that looked randomly generated (rather than having 4 alternate models over and over again), the choice of using either broadswords OR big-ass guns on the same character (instead of the side-arms which is cool for a while, but they don't pack enough punch), co-op play that WORKS rather than adding more lag *coughLANcough*ª and massive outdoor levels with monsters the size of Big Ben.

THAT is what I feel that video promises. THAT is what got me excited about HellGate: London. Now it just feels like a disappointing version of Diablo 2: Redux.

Don't get me wrong, I like playing HG. I just feel like they shouldn't have bitten off more than they could chew.

ª: I know that was never promised, I just thought I'd add that while I was bitching.

[The Fury]

Unfortunately that's the turn the industry has taken since gaming became mainstream, and turned into a commercial juggernaut. "Gamers" today are completely different than they were 10 years ago. When everyone and their fucking mothers didn't play video games it was far more difficult to pull the wool over everyones eyes because the gaming public was more discerning, and game companies didn't have millions to throw into marketing so you couldn't afford elaborate smoke screens. Games that were a smashing commercial success were few and far between, because the game actually had to be everything you were claiming it is for it to make an impact, since word of mouth was how your game made money.

Things have changed since big money corporations (gaming, or otherwise) have infected the industry. Game developers can honestly have the intent to make sure their customers get what they want, but they don't have nearly as much control over this anymore. If your financial backing tells you to put your customers over a barrel and proceed to have at them sans lube, than that is what you do, otherwise you risk losing said financial backing, and open yourself up to litigation and all sorts of other bullshit.

Now some developers have more clout than others, and I'm not stating that FSS is aiming to fuck over anyone, because honestly it's not in their best interest to do so they are a fledgling studio, and they simply can't afford it. They might have been forced, or convinced to pull the trigger before it was time, but I think Roper and crew have what it takes to bring it back around and turn HG:L into the game it should be (even though I think it's a great game as it stands =) )

[Philozophizerr]

Well, now we know what we spent their money on. All those damn trailers.

[Asuka Kazama]

I love the second trailer. However that trailer was done a couple years ago. Also I think we all know by now that rules in a game don't apply to the trailers. I mean check out the Burning Crusade intro movie, a perfect example is when the blood elf insta rezzes the orc when rez has a 10 second cast timer on it. Now look at that HG:L trailer, there's multiple things in that trailer that don't apply in game however that trailer is fun to watch over and over. I know I've watched it a dozen plus times just out of coolness. I'm thinking one of the new classes with be a psionics type class or something.

[Ave]

Sort of agree with The Dude they did show too much in the videos which isnt represented in game.

Im sure over time this will improve, im impressed so far at their urgency to add more stuff and improve what people dont like.

I think cutting Hell out and dropping the level cap was a big mistake for instance, that should have been left alone... why remove it?

[The Fury]

A trailer is a marketing ploy nothing less, nothing more and it shouldn't really be taken as actual representation of what one can expect in terms of gameplay, although it can set the tone for a product. It is easy to forget this though, as I've been taken in by a game trailer and all of the cool shit I saw, only to be slightly disappointed when none of what was portrayed was actually a part of the game play.

[The Dude]

Also I think we all know by now that rules in a game don't apply to the trailers. A trailer is a marketing ploy nothing less, nothing more and it shouldn't really be taken as actual representation of what one can expect in terms of gameplay, although it can set the tone for a product.
If you see a trailer for a movie and it has Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt chasing down the Yakuza, what do you expect? A movie about 3 guys fighting the Yakuza. Now you go to watch said movie and it's a home video of some kid chasing butterflies. You're fucking pissed off by now. You want your money back. You don't care that it could MAYBE be good, you paid to see Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt! And Yakuza! And ass kicking!

I hate this bullshit that the promise you one thing and hand you another. The rules in a game SHOULD apply to the trailers. Otherwise that's false advertising! People get their asses sued off them or even land in jail for less! Why is the gaming community an exception?

Now look at that HG:L trailer, there's multiple things in that trailer that don't apply in game however that trailer is fun to watch over and over. I know I've watched it a dozen plus times just out of coolness.
The trailer should be fun, yes. But shouldn't the game be more so?

[lockwoodx]

If you see a trailer for a movie and it has Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt chasing down the Yakuza, what do you expect? A movie about 3 guys fighting the Yakuza. Now you go to watch said movie and it's a home video of some kid chasing butterflies. You're fucking pissed off by now. You want your money back. You don't care that it could MAYBE be good, you paid to see Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt! And Yakuza! And ass kicking!

I hate this bullshit that the promise you one thing and hand you another. The rules in a game SHOULD apply to the trailers. Otherwise that's false advertising! People get their asses sued off them or even land in jail for less! Why is the gaming community an exception?


The trailer should be fun, yes. But shouldn't the game be more so?

I have alot more respect for rendered trailers than FMV trailers and the companies who use them.

[Philozophizerr]

Another thing is that a lot of - hell, most of the promotional shots of the game clearly featured a Templar with a two handed sword, the website even had a description of the thing, The Negotiator, so where is it?

[Revan]

Another thing is that a lot of - hell, most of the promotional shots of the game clearly featured a Templar with a two handed sword, the website even had a description of the thing, The Negotiator, so where is it?

the holy negotiator is in-game.
it's just a crappy one-handed weapon.

[The Fury]

If you see a trailer for a movie and it has Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt chasing down the Yakuza, what do you expect? A movie about 3 guys fighting the Yakuza. Now you go to watch said movie and it's a home video of some kid chasing butterflies. You're fucking pissed off by now. You want your money back. You don't care that it could MAYBE be good, you paid to see Jackie Chan, Samuel L Jackson and Brad Pitt! And Yakuza! And ass kicking!

I hate this bullshit that the promise you one thing and hand you another. The rules in a game SHOULD apply to the trailers. Otherwise that's false advertising! People get their asses sued off them or even land in jail for less! Why is the gaming community an exception?


The trailer should be fun, yes. But shouldn't the game be more so?

I honestly don't even watch trailers anymore for this very reason alone, it just strikes me as pointless. I'm not going to be able to do half the shit I see in the trailer, and all it's there for is to provoke hype. All I really care about are game play videos, since they more accurately depict the game with little to no smoke screens, because they are the game.

[Goblin]

I would love to see a werewolf class implemented into this game. Werewolves have always been my favorite on diablo 2, and I love werewolf movies like Underworld and Van Helsing. :)

[Lonethar]

My agreement here. We need a Gamers United Front that puts a stop to this bullshit. Who wants to join up with G.U.F?

[Philozophizerr]

I would love to see a werewolf class implemented into this game. Werewolves have always been my favorite on diablo 2, and I love werewolf movies like Underworld and Van Helsing. :)

That is completely random and unrelated, werewolves aren't connected at all in the lore.